Same position different angles. Posting for no other reason than interest and comparison.
Actually closer to 12-15kgs difference."Don't push me Elvis... I'm a donkey on the edge..."Sorry about that... I don't want to see an Ass fall... ;PElvis
As far as I know, the Federation rules are that you have to have both shoulders pinned to the ground for the three seconds to get the points for a pass.
Those photos suggest only one of Anthony's shoulders were pinned to the ground.
"Sorry about that... I don't want to see an Ass fall..." That's not what I heard... ;p
Great photo's... My interpretation after much deliberation is that Marcello had 1 shoulder and control for about 4-5 seconds. Anth kinda got stuck in the above position. Such a good fight to watch though.
Who's the good lookin' bald guy with the mic? ;)
Tim
P.S. Johnny both shoulders is freestyle wrestling...
BondiBJJ,
At the tournaments that Peter De Been has run (the AFBJJ), they have only given points for the pass when both of the opponent's shoulders were on the mat for 3 seconds.
Same as at the Worlds. You must control both shoulders. Anthony has reviewed the tape, though many of you may think him biased at his own match, he has fought at the Pan Pacs, Pan Ams and the Worlds and medalled in all of them. His opinion is that the original score is correct. Take that how you will.
Elvis
It is true that the points nazis will wait until they are
pinned (both shoulders on the mat), I don't think
that it really matters in the end because the
decision was made on the day. Anthony won.
Good on Paulo for being man enough and humble
enough to say that he made a mistake, but it really
dosn't change anything, Anthony won.
Having said this, if hypothetically the decision were
overturned this would be disasterous, the recourse
process and appeals would begin to be common
place and this would be soon inundated with
disgruntled competitors and coaches who think
that they have been hard done by. It would take
months for the results to come out! It would be
less a comparison of Jiu Jitsu technique and more
an excercise in argument, the white belt lawers will
rule the mats.
If there was a mistake then I am sure that Marcelo
will take the opportunity to compete with Anthony
who will likewise grant him that opportunity when
the next tournament arises.
If you really want to see who is better get the two in
question to play ten times or a hundred times, and
see who wins the most. It is a rare occurance that
a decision be made on the efficacy of something or
someone based on one trial. The point here is that
Anthony was better on the day and the result
reflected that. It dosn't make Marcelo less of a Jiu
Jitsu man or Paulo less of a referee.
So can everyone just move on and get back to
important stuff like seeing naked chicks.
Dave.
Do you really have to pin both shoulders for 3 sec? If that is so then i know some people with practically impassable guards, because they could just hit a backbridge and never have both shoulders touch the mat. You don't need to pin both shoulders in judo and in wrestling it is only for 1 sec and you win.
BTW That definition that BenBJJ came up with is actually from
http://www.cbjj.com.br/english/rules.htm
Which is the official website of the organisation which runs the mundials.
If a Black Belt is allowed to break the 1 min rule what other rules is it ok for the Black Belts to break?
As a student of Marcelo's (Gracie Barra Sydney) and knowing him personally, I would just like to say that if you look at the conditions on the day, such as: 1. It was held outside under a marquee, with limited warming up area supplied. 2. It was raining most of the day, so all competitors and spectators were crammed into the marquee. 3. The warming up mat was outside in the rain. 4. It was not like the comp was held in doors as in previous events, where there is plenty of room for all competitors and spectators, as well as a quality/dry warming up area for all competitors to prepare for their event.
And prior to the blue and purple belt divisions starting, the competitor's were given time and one of the competition mats under the marquee to warm up and prepare for their first bout, this was not done for the Black Belts.
In closing Marcelo and Anthony put on a great show for which they both should be proud of, WELL DONE GUY'S.
Regards
Grant Ratcliffe
Hey Bondi, i bet this doesnt suprise you but the Marketting thread has now dissapeared also!!!
Justin@xfc probably got banned because of mis-representation. I don't see why the real Justin would post that sort of stuff (especially the blah blah blah one after Elvis talking about Kayoom's traing for HIS show)
Yeah Keats... Funny that... What a dick. Bring back Gumgor.
Anyway's this thread is getting tired. Well done Anothony, great win. Lets have another go at the next round of the NSW circuit... And another after that... And another after that...
There can never be enough Black Belt fights in my opinion.
Tough call.
I've been looking forward to the first BJJ Black Belt match in Australia for ages and disappointed to see it end in controversy.
Congratulations to both Anthony and Marcelo for getting on the mat and providing us with the opportunity to see two of our top Aussie Black Belts giving their all.
Both men are winners. Lets not discourage future black belt matches by getting too excited about what could and should have happened.
Regards
Gerald.
ps. Can't beleive no-one commented on the faces in the crowd behind the fighter's......they are going off watching the match!!!!!!!
Actually not true Gerald, we noticed! The bald guy sitting down, fist in air and Mic in hand is me... Swallowed a fly just after...
The atmosphere was awesome. Everyone was totally into it and the Drummers added a bit of cultural authenticity to the occassion! Damn good.
Tim
I don't think the controversy is too bad a thing. We are all passionate for BJJ and its going to show. The match was close and could have gone either way.
I think it would be worse if the match was forgotten the day after it happened.
"the only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about."
Anyways, watching the crowd was almost as awesome as watching the match - so many eyes locked on the one thing with the same grins on their faces. :-)
I agree with one a bit. I think its been good for the sport so far as no one has attacked the ref or either fighter, just put their opinions across of their interprtations of the rule.
I think its been a great talking point and i hope everyone keeps talking about the Black Belt fight at least untill we have one in Melbourne soon!
Hopefuly by then there will be a few more Black Belts rolling with each other also!
As i am also new to compation BJJ, with so many rules that seem to be easy to interpritate different was (as it is a tecnical sport) does contriversy happen often in other matches?
Is this a normal thing but just being highlited because of the rank of guys compeating?
LOL i just saw the Photo in detail. Anthony has to underhooks! no way will he be pinned downed.
The way I look at it, one side isn't going to convince the other side. I don't think Marcello showed control when he passed (one of the important elements of passing). The guys supporting him probably do. I'm pretty sure neither side is going to budge.
The score (advantage vs points), made at the time based on the referees experience and perspective, is the correct decision and the result stands as the correct one. I do agree that it was very close and it could have gone either way. Had the points been scored for the pass (instead of the advantage), I wouldn't have complained. BUT the match would have ended differently imo. The important point is that they weren't scored and saying anything else is pointless. The result is Anthony won the match.
The only real solution is for a rematch at the next federation tournament. Both guys were game for the match first time and I have no doubt they'd be game for a second match. All this does is reward all us BJJ fans... nothing better than another BJJ Black Belt match. Hopefully more Black Belts will come on board as well.
Elvis
At the risk of others getting tetchy I'll add a little more.
Firstly, Elvis is correct. It was a close match, Anthony won fairly, and if the points were awarded for the pass it would have been a very different match anyways.
Both guys risked being the subject of shit-talking if they lost, but they still stepped up. Its good to see that they are being given the respect they deserve on this thread. I sincerely hope that we don't see the results from matches like this one used in the "MY COACH IS BETTER THAN YOUR COACH" way that seems to dominate Australian BJJ culture.
*BUT*
From a technical point of view, I'm suprised that you need to pin both your opponents shoulders to the mat for 3 seconds in order to score the guard pass points.
The side control escapes that I have seen rely on the guy on the bottom getting to his side and facing his opponent to recover guard/go to knees. I think you can still have 'controlling' side control despite the fact that your opponent is on his side (ie one shoulder) trying to work his side control escapes.
I guess the advantage of the 3 second pin rule is that it is a little less subjective than 'controlling'/'dominating'/etc which are even more open for referee interpretation.
I'm interested in hearing more about the rules wrt guard passing.
Peace
From someone pretty new to BJJ its interesting to see that no one seems to be disputing what happened, all the confussion seems to be in the rules!
Everyone seems to agree Macelo pass Anthonys guard but no one seems sure if you have to pin the shoulers or not (including the ref).
Is the sport that new here in Oz that no one knows the rules?
Or are there different rules for different comps?