Well Kimura did participate in Pro Wrestling, as did many of the great CACC wrestlers of the day and before it. So it's probably true.
I don't really know what Relson expected Royce to do really. Matt Hughes is just on another level. Did anyone catch his fight against Almeida? He choked him out w/ a banned straight wrestling move!
Point is guys like Matt Hughes didn't exist when Relson was fighting in little tournaments twice a year and making a "name"beating up drunks in bars and local soccer players. You can't even compare it.
Honestly, how the hell was Royce gonna even take Matt down? On what fairytale universe is this gonna happen? Was he gonna use his patented telegraphed double leg from 1/2 way across the ring? Yeah that'll work.
I respect the hell out of Royce man. The guy is a f*cking warrior. He went out there to battle a guy that he had NO CHANCE of beating, but faced him anyway, took his beating like a man, and left like one. While other members of his family who never once faced that level of opposition talk crap about him? That's just wrong, man.
He's the reason we all train, that there is a UFC, that this forum even has a reason to exist in the 1st place, in short basically ALL of our lives were forever changed in 1 way or another by Royce Gracie. And I for one will forever be indebted to him for that. Hell he could go fight in Japan's Pro Wrestling and it wouldn't change what he did for the entire fighting world.
UNIFIEDTEAM1 - Well Kimura did participate in Pro Wrestling, as did many of the great CACC wrestlers of the day and before it. So it's probably true.
I don't really know what Relson expected Royce to do really. Matt Hughes is just on another level. Did anyone catch his fight against Almeida? He choked him out w/ a banned straight wrestling move!
Point is guys like Matt Hughes didn't exist when Relson was fighting in little tournaments twice a year and making a "name"beating up drunks in bars and local soccer players. You can't even compare it.
Honestly, how the hell was Royce gonna even take Matt down? On what fairytale universe is this gonna happen? Was he gonna use his patented telegraphed double leg from 1/2 way across the ring? Yeah that'll work.
I respect the hell out of Royce man. The guy is a f*cking warrior. He went out there to battle a guy that he had NO CHANCE of beating, but faced him anyway, took his beating like a man, and left like one. While other members of his family who never once faced that level of opposition talk crap about him? That's just wrong, man.
He's the reason we all train, that there is a UFC, that this forum even has a reason to exist in the 1st place, in short basically ALL of our lives were forever changed in 1 way or another by Royce Gracie. And I for one will forever be indebted to him for that. Hell he could go fight in Japan's Pro Wrestling and it wouldn't change what he did for the entire fighting world.
well said. Royce was facing someone Relson could not comprehend. During Relson and Helio's time, nobody was well rounded to anywhere near the degree as Matt Hughes was. Relson is likely unable to train ROyce or offer any tactical advice that would increase Royce's chance of winning as he has never ever had to face anyone as skilled and versatile as Hughes
And here he is trashing Royce. Does anyone really believe Royce would be able to drag Hughes to the ground using a bodylock?
That's kinda ridiculous. Guys as tough as Matt Hughes never existed before? Basically you are saying there is no bjj stylist that could beat Hughes and his capacity. That's all Relson is saying, that Royce should have improved and employed his jj tactics to fight him, and not try to kickbox him...say like Demian Maia might...wait, Demian is becoming a kickboxer before my very eyes, never mind.
In the days of Relson, Carlos, and Helio there was not anyone on the same level as Hughes. And remember that the fight wasn't decided on the feet - it was on the ground and Royce simply was not able to use any of his back game since Hughes was simply too strong and powerful on top not to mention pretty versed in submissions himself.
I definitely think that Royce could have performed much better in the fight with Hughes. Even if he lost in a different way, he could have done much better...and I think he could have gone the distance. I can understand Relson being frustrated with what he saw.
Regardless, it is sad that they do not talk anymore.
Quoted Text: Moke - That's kinda ridiculous. Guys as tough as Matt Hughes never existed before? Basically you are saying there is no bjj stylist that could beat Hughes and his capacity. That's all Relson is saying, that Royce should have improved and employed his jj tactics to fight him, and not try to kickbox him...say like Demian Maia might...wait, Demian is becoming a kickboxer before my very eyes, never mind. Quoted text
Where did I ever say guys as tough as Hughes? I mean the level of technique Hughes had in combination with his physical attributes did not exist at the time of Helio, Carlos, and Relson, etc. back in the day. If it had been around an the Gracies fought them, we would be hearing about a loss worse than the one with Masahiko Kimura.
And yes, I am saying Hughes in his more experienced form (when he fought Royce and in his prime) will almost never lose to any BJJ fighter UNLESS that bjj fighter had great standup or better wrestling than Hughes, which no Gracie trained fighter has. Nor according to Relson, should even exist as that isn't "pure."
Jorge Pereira, Ricardo Almeida, Matt Serra, Renzo and Royce all good BJJ fighters fell to Hughes with virtually minimal chances of victory due to physicality and skillset, of which Hughes had the superior of nearly everything. Striking and wrestling were superior for Hughes while his bjj was not up the level of his opponents, it was still proficient. of that bunch, Serra was the closest to beating Hughes not because he utilized "old school Gracie JJ," but because he had mean punch power. Hughes didn't need his BJJ to match that of his oppnents cause he had other stuff to rely on. But then again from Relson's viewpoint, that is violation of Helio's style.
bottom line is that the older generation of Gracie fighters did fight tough guys, but they never did have the level of well rounded opponents to face like Royce did. Therefore, Relson criticizing ROyce is kind of harsh as ROyce stepped in there and tried his best to possibly take advantage of one of Hughes's weaker aspects of his game
I also don't know why Relson is so adamant about ROyce losing because he employed "karate or muay thai" because it's not like he got caught with a huge shot trying to exchange strikes, he got taken down and smashed on the ground. Also, if Relson/Helio style is so superior, name me ONE Relson/Helio side trained fighter that could beat Hughes.
pssst He was being sarcastic, skilgannon ;-)
I think people forget that the older generation of the Gracie family fought in Vale-Tudo matches not MMA. In these Vale-Tudo matches there were basically no rules and the fighters wore no fingerless gloves. Even Royce’s fights in the earlier UFC were much like Vale-Tudo matches.
Fighters like Matt Hughes fought in the newer version of the UFC where all fighters have to wear gloves and abide by strict rules that take away from a Jiu-Jiteiro fighter. I think gloves give a striker a chance to strike with full power and not have to worry much about breaking a hand. I would have liked to see Matt Hughes fought with no gloves and see if that would have made a difference.
Anyone that has fought in street fights knows what it feels like to hit someone on the head. After a while that shit hurts and you really hold back on the punches after a while. Bare knuckle fighting is a lot different than fighting with fingerless gloves with gauzed and taped hands. This is one of the reasons why boxing gloves were developed to protect a fighter’s hands and not the face.
Jorge Pereira, Ricardo Almeida, Matt Serra, Renzo and Royce all good BJJ fighters fell to Hughes with virtually minimal chances of victory due to physicality and skillset, of which Hughes had the superior of nearly everything. Striking and wrestling were superior for Hughes while his bjj was not up the level of his opponents, it was still proficient. of that bunch, Serra was the closest to beating Hughes not because he utilized "old school Gracie JJ," but because he had mean punch power. Hughes didn't need his BJJ to match that of his oppnents cause he had other stuff to rely on. But then again from Relson's viewpoint, that is violation of Helio's style.
This may be hard to explain but I think Relson is thinking more down the lines of this: That Gjj has already gone through the evolution and testing phase...for true NHB, not mma, and certainly not fighting with gloves and rounds. He's saying Gjj already has everything you need to beat anyone so long as you train hard enough and have your skill to a high enough level.
When he laughed at Royce, it was because he spent so much time training kickboxing, he had forgotten how to do fundamental bjj moves in his fight.
On paper you could say, "Yeah, but adding boxing would only increase your skillset right?" And the answer would be yes and no. Yes because you are adding more techniques, and no because you are taking away time from bjj to do so. Also because you are adding a dimension to your game that is not necessarily compatible with the primary part of your game. And even many of the Gracies have been guilty of this. As they up their boxing skills, they spend more of their time in a fight...boxing...and not attacking a guy from the mat.
Renzo and Roger Gracie come to mind immediately of two guys I greatly respect, who have spent too much time trying to box people. And for Roger, it's sent him back to the drawing board.
Also when you add something like boxing, you are going to end up evolving away from the true and already tested system. Every generation is going to add something else and get further away from bjj. It will become just another component in some hybrid system. Watered down and lost.
In boxing you are spending all of your time exactly where you never want to spend any time in bjj...in bjj you want to be completely out of range, or clinched and going to the ground. In boxing you're constantly floating around in punching range...exactly where you shouldn't be. And no matter how good your hands are, let's face it...you can easily get caught. Every moment you spend out there you are rolling the dice.
How would Matt Hughes have done against say a prime Rickson in a no time limit vale tudo match? I'm pretty sure he'd have been choked out...and Rickson can't punch or box for shit.
^ Also time limits & no up kicks from the guard if a fighter is is on his knees hurts JJ.
...and don't forget, Hughes has good bjj...so why would you want to change an entire tested system because you lose to a fighter who's good at your system too? That doesn't even make sense.
When bjj starts regularly losing to fighters that don't have bjj incorporated into their style, THEN it's time to start talking evolution.
Moke -Jorge Pereira, Ricardo Almeida, Matt Serra, Renzo and Royce all good BJJ fighters fell to Hughes with virtually minimal chances of victory due to physicality and skillset, of which Hughes had the superior of nearly everything. Striking and wrestling were superior for Hughes while his bjj was not up the level of his opponents, it was still proficient. of that bunch, Serra was the closest to beating Hughes not because he utilized "old school Gracie JJ," but because he had mean punch power. Hughes didn't need his BJJ to match that of his oppnents cause he had other stuff to rely on. But then again from Relson's viewpoint, that is violation of Helio's style.
This may be hard to explain but I think Relson is thinking more down the lines of this: That Gjj has already gone through the evolution and testing phase...for true NHB, not mma, and certainly not fighting with gloves and rounds. He's saying Gjj already has everything you need to beat anyone so long as you train hard enough and have your skill to a high enough level.
When he laughed at Royce, it was because he spent so much time training kickboxing, he had forgotten how to do fundamental bjj moves in his fight.
On paper you could say, "Yeah, but adding boxing would only increase your skillset right?" And the answer would be yes and no. Yes because you are adding more techniques, and no because you are taking away time from bjj to do so. Also because you are adding a dimension to your game that is not necessarily compatible with the primary part of your game. And even many of the Gracies have been guilty of this. As they up their boxing skills, they spend more of their time in a fight...boxing...and not attacking a guy from the mat.
Renzo and Roger Gracie come to mind immediately of two guys I greatly respect, who have spent too much time trying to box people. And for Roger, it's sent him back to the drawing board.
Also when you add something like boxing, you are going to end up evolving away from the true and already tested system. Every generation is going to add something else and get further away from bjj. It will become just another component in some hybrid system. Watered down and lost.
In boxing you are spending all of your time exactly where you never want to spend any time in bjj...in bjj you want to be completely out of range, or clinched and going to the ground. In boxing you're constantly floating around in punching range...exactly where you shouldn't be. And no matter how good your hands are, let's face it...you can easily get caught. Every moment you spend out there you are rolling the dice.
How would Matt Hughes have done against say a prime Rickson in a no time limit vale tudo match? I'm pretty sure he'd have been choked out...and Rickson can't punch or box for shit.
EXCELLENT points, that make sense from the pov of Vale Tudo, but MMA is much different and therefore one could say there indeed needs to be an evolution. Personally I don't much give a shit about MMA, but if you gonna do it, your training needs to address it's particular arena IMHO.
But it is also very true, Royce didn't even show fundamemntal jiujitsu that IS EXPECTED from someone at his level......HOLY HELL!
Personally, I like jiujitsu as a defensive style or art with a few additions based upon my own personal experience, training and needs.....but I don't think it meshes well in modern MMA as a singular platform.
Sgt. Slaphead -Moke -Jorge Pereira, Ricardo Almeida, Matt Serra, Renzo and Royce all good BJJ fighters fell to Hughes with virtually minimal chances of victory due to physicality and skillset, of which Hughes had the superior of nearly everything. Striking and wrestling were superior for Hughes while his bjj was not up the level of his opponents, it was still proficient. of that bunch, Serra was the closest to beating Hughes not because he utilized "old school Gracie JJ," but because he had mean punch power. Hughes didn't need his BJJ to match that of his oppnents cause he had other stuff to rely on. But then again from Relson's viewpoint, that is violation of Helio's style.
This may be hard to explain but I think Relson is thinking more down the lines of this: That Gjj has already gone through the evolution and testing phase...for true NHB, not mma, and certainly not fighting with gloves and rounds. He's saying Gjj already has everything you need to beat anyone so long as you train hard enough and have your skill to a high enough level.
When he laughed at Royce, it was because he spent so much time training kickboxing, he had forgotten how to do fundamental bjj moves in his fight.
On paper you could say, "Yeah, but adding boxing would only increase your skillset right?" And the answer would be yes and no. Yes because you are adding more techniques, and no because you are taking away time from bjj to do so. Also because you are adding a dimension to your game that is not necessarily compatible with the primary part of your game. And even many of the Gracies have been guilty of this. As they up their boxing skills, they spend more of their time in a fight...boxing...and not attacking a guy from the mat.
Renzo and Roger Gracie come to mind immediately of two guys I greatly respect, who have spent too much time trying to box people. And for Roger, it's sent him back to the drawing board.
Also when you add something like boxing, you are going to end up evolving away from the true and already tested system. Every generation is going to add something else and get further away from bjj. It will become just another component in some hybrid system. Watered down and lost.
In boxing you are spending all of your time exactly where you never want to spend any time in bjj...in bjj you want to be completely out of range, or clinched and going to the ground. In boxing you're constantly floating around in punching range...exactly where you shouldn't be. And no matter how good your hands are, let's face it...you can easily get caught. Every moment you spend out there you are rolling the dice.
How would Matt Hughes have done against say a prime Rickson in a no time limit vale tudo match? I'm pretty sure he'd have been choked out...and Rickson can't punch or box for shit.
EXCELLENT points, that make sense from the pov of Vale Tudo, but MMA is much different and therefore one could say there indeed needs to be an evolution. Personally I don't much give a shit about MMA, but if you gonna do it, your training needs to address it's particular arena IMHO.
But it is also very true, Royce didn't even show fundamemntal jiujitsu that IS EXPECTED from someone at his level......HOLY HELL!
Personally, I like jiujitsu as a defensive style or art with a few additions based upon my own personal experience, training and needs.....but I don't think it meshes well in modern MMA as a singular platform.
True......BJJ works best when it is used in a defensively. It is becomes less effective when you have to chase your opponent especially in a cage.
for those of you saying Hughes vs ROyce would have had a different outcome had it been a no glove vale tudo, the only difference would have been instead of finishing off ROyce with punches from the back it would have been a dozen 12 to 6 elbows to the back of ROyce's head/neck until he was out cold. Seriously, how many people here even watched that fight? The fight went on as smooth as can be as there was no outside influence (referee standups, infractions, etc.) and the fight was finished within the first round so having no time limit would have changed nothing.
adding a new skillset into your game for mma/vale tudo is never a bad move. Knowing when to use it is an individual case of common sense to know if it is an appropriate time to employ new skills. Are you going to say it was a bad idea for BJ Penn to start boxing training because that took away time from his BJJ? Let's talk in the case of BJ here. According to Relson's recent interviews, that guy is in total violation of Helio/Relson style of fighting. I mean the guy has his entire BJJ background heavily involved in sport IBJJF competitions then went on to cross train in standup arts. According to Relson, this should not be a recipe for succees. Hell no as he decimated Hughes every time they met (ignore his untimely freak injury in 2nd fight) with his boxing and finished with his BJJ. If those 3 fights had taken place in an alternate universe where BJ had chosen to not train any standup (being true to Relson/Helio philosophy) Hughes would instead would likely have won all 3 encounters of theirs in dominating fashion.Those criticizing Royce for his inaction after it hit the ground are just yapping nonsense. It's not like he started training standup and suddenly forgot his BJJ skills. Try doing any type of basic escape or upa when Matt Hughes is on top of you pressuring with his strength and technique. Royce went in there with minimal chance at victory and he knew that yet he stepped in there anyways because he is a freakin warrior. He certainly doesn't deserve to have Relson yapping at his side as if he had the magical answer to defeat Hughes.
Let's talk other successful BJJ fighters in MMA today. Almost every one I can think of came from a sport BJJ background combined with quality standup training. Let's name names. BJ Penn, Jose Aldo, Gabriel Gonzaga, Fabricio Werdum, Vitor Shaolin, Marlon Sandro, Demian Maia, Renan Barao, Giva Santana, Murilo Bustamante, Rani Yahya, Ricardo Arona, Nino Schembri, Bibiano Fernandes, Matt Serra, and the list goes on. None of these successful BJJ fighters follow a Helio/Relson approach.
Now name me one successful fighter from Relson's branch that loyally follows his word to the dot that has found success. I am sure there are many fighters that train at Relson school that do well but I am certain they do not follow his philosophy. Example is Jeff Curran. He is a loyal Relson follower (at least at one point he was) and even then his fighting philosophy greatly differed from Relson's. I am a huge fan of his and he implements his boxing well with his BJJ. Daniel Moraes could be said to have been one of the biggest names repping Relson in the Gracie FIghting Challenge a couple years back. In that fight, it was a very similar situation to Royce vs Hughes in which it was BJJ fighter vs superior wrestler+better striking. Moraes followed a gameplan polar opposite of Royce vs Hughes (basically what Relson wanted ROyce to do) and took major shots, attempted ineffective takedowns, gassed himself out, and suffered a humiliating loss by way of TKO from refusing to stand up from butt scoot. Tell me what world is that some formula of success.
skilgannon,
I don't think you're quite getting the concept that Relson is not a fan of MMA, and doesn't want his style (which has already been thoroughly tested for many decades) to be altered just for the sake of mma success.
Would Hughes have beaten Royce in a vale-tudo match? Probably. But Hughes is a rare specimen taken from a very large talent pool. As I mentioned earlier, how about making it more fair and matching Hughes against a prime Rickson in no time limit vale-tudo? That seems fair...that's matching the talent pool of the entire USA vs one of Helio's sons...and guess who wins?
I am curious how anyone would presume to know that "Royce knew he had minimal chance to win but fought anyway because he is a warrior." Did Royce tell you that? I don't believe that was Royce's mindset at all. Royce is a warrior and likely firmly believed he would prevail. All of us owe Royce a huge thank you. The first fight I saw was Royce vs Severn and since I wrestled in college I knew how formidable wrestling was. When Royce won I became an immediate fan. I think Relson may be on to something though, you have to play to your strengths and I believe Gracie Jiu-Jitsu remains at the top of the food chain. Of course I don't dismiss that Hughes was a better wrestler and legitimate skills on the mat and destroyed most people. The UFC continues to evolve and mma fighters are completed beasts. I think Gracie Jiu Jitsu is bigger than UFC as very few of us have the time or natural abilities to succeed in today's MMA world. It would be great to meet and train with Relson some time as he seems like a very interesting personality. Kudos to unifiedteam for such a well thought out post.
Team Python -Sgt. Slaphead -Moke -Jorge Pereira, Ricardo Almeida, Matt Serra, Renzo and Royce all good BJJ fighters fell to Hughes with virtually minimal chances of victory due to physicality and skillset, of which Hughes had the superior of nearly everything. Striking and wrestling were superior for Hughes while his bjj was not up the level of his opponents, it was still proficient. of that bunch, Serra was the closest to beating Hughes not because he utilized "old school Gracie JJ," but because he had mean punch power. Hughes didn't need his BJJ to match that of his oppnents cause he had other stuff to rely on. But then again from Relson's viewpoint, that is violation of Helio's style.
This may be hard to explain but I think Relson is thinking more down the lines of this: That Gjj has already gone through the evolution and testing phase...for true NHB, not mma, and certainly not fighting with gloves and rounds. He's saying Gjj already has everything you need to beat anyone so long as you train hard enough and have your skill to a high enough level.
When he laughed at Royce, it was because he spent so much time training kickboxing, he had forgotten how to do fundamental bjj moves in his fight.
On paper you could say, "Yeah, but adding boxing would only increase your skillset right?" And the answer would be yes and no. Yes because you are adding more techniques, and no because you are taking away time from bjj to do so. Also because you are adding a dimension to your game that is not necessarily compatible with the primary part of your game. And even many of the Gracies have been guilty of this. As they up their boxing skills, they spend more of their time in a fight...boxing...and not attacking a guy from the mat.
Renzo and Roger Gracie come to mind immediately of two guys I greatly respect, who have spent too much time trying to box people. And for Roger, it's sent him back to the drawing board.
Also when you add something like boxing, you are going to end up evolving away from the true and already tested system. Every generation is going to add something else and get further away from bjj. It will become just another component in some hybrid system. Watered down and lost.
In boxing you are spending all of your time exactly where you never want to spend any time in bjj...in bjj you want to be completely out of range, or clinched and going to the ground. In boxing you're constantly floating around in punching range...exactly where you shouldn't be. And no matter how good your hands are, let's face it...you can easily get caught. Every moment you spend out there you are rolling the dice.
How would Matt Hughes have done against say a prime Rickson in a no time limit vale tudo match? I'm pretty sure he'd have been choked out...and Rickson can't punch or box for shit.
EXCELLENT points, that make sense from the pov of Vale Tudo, but MMA is much different and therefore one could say there indeed needs to be an evolution. Personally I don't much give a shit about MMA, but if you gonna do it, your training needs to address it's particular arena IMHO.
But it is also very true, Royce didn't even show fundamemntal jiujitsu that IS EXPECTED from someone at his level......HOLY HELL!
Personally, I like jiujitsu as a defensive style or art with a few additions based upon my own personal experience, training and needs.....but I don't think it meshes well in modern MMA as a singular platform.
True......BJJ works best when it is used in a defensively. It is becomes less effective when you have to chase your opponent especially in a cage.
again, I disagree. Look at fighters from BTT, Cesar Gracie camp, and Nova Uniao. Their fighters that utilize ground games in their fights use their skills effectively in a very aggressive manner and that is made possible by their improved wrestling training and making their opponents scared of their standing strikes. BJJ is effective for offense and defense, just goes with how the individual utilizes it.
And for the Matt Hughes vs Rickson in his prime, I think Hughes would likely defeat Rickson but not as easily as he did to Royce. No time limit wouldn't be a factor as Hughes would likely finish. Rickson is a warrior and is formidable but he just does not have the tools to defeat Hughes. Do you think Rickson would really be able to drag Hughes to the mat and end up on top with his bodylock takedown? He struggled within an inch of his life to take down Yoshihisa Yamamoto and endured quite the accumulated damage from Funaki before he finally got him down. And neither man is as powerful or skilled in wrestling as Hughes is. In my opinion for a BJJ fighter to defeat Hughes, the key is to have better wrestling and be able to take him down or have powerful standup skills to damage him before he gets the takedown. I ignored his 2X submission losses to Dennis Hallman because he was quite inexperienced at the time and Hallman is an extremely aggressive submission artist with strong wrestling himself
^ Rickson was in a cradle for 20 mins and still submitted Mark Schultz, Matt hughes wrestling is no where near Mark Schultz level. And if you say there was no striking allowed which was true, strikes also open up opportunities for submissions with someone Rickson's level. Also GSP ( and BJ Penn)tapped Hughes and his BJJ isnt anywhere near Rickson's either.
again, I disagree. Look at fighters from BTT, Cesar Gracie camp, and Nova Uniao. Their fighters that utilize ground games in their fights use their skills effectively in a very aggressive manner and that is made possible by their improved wrestling training and making their opponents scared of their standing strikes. BJJ is effective for offense and defense, just goes with how the individual utilizes it.
Nick Diaz would have beat Condit had he simply boxed his way into a clinch and fought him on the ground instead of walking around boxing him for the whole fight.