There is a lot more to the static between Relson and Royce than what has been mentioned here. He was really upset about the steroid issue for one; to Relson this was an insult to Helio's legacy.
graciesrule - I am a big Relson fan but to not talk to your brother cause he lost a fight, ridiculous. He should be thanking Royce for what he did to put Gracie Jiu Jitsu on the map with his UFC victories. Kind of like Carlson said after he avenged Helio's defeat by Santana, if it wasnt for him, the family would be picking fruit somewhere, same applies to Royce!
I'm not going to pretend to know all the intricacies of the times, challenges, and relationships, and yes Carlson avenged Helio in the Sanatana fight. However, it has always swirled around in my mind that the reason there was a fight to avenge in the first place is because Helio was the one out there challenging everyone and taking all-comers. He's the one who challenged and fought Kato and Kimura etc...I hardly think they'd be picking fruit if no one avenged Santana...no one avegned Kimura...at least I'm not aware of a line forming to fight him afterwards.
12 -303 -GrapplerX -303 - I am proud to be a member of Team Relson Gracie. He gets overlooked a lot but he was the world champ, and family champ for 22 years. I am lucky to have a instructor who lived with Relson in Hawaii. I know I am biased, but the best Gracie Jiu Jitsu as taught be Helio comes from Relson Gracie.Have you trained with all the other Gracies to know?
No I have not and I understand how that can be a broad statment, but what other Gracie also teaches Gracie Combatives as part of the curriculum? It is no secret Relson keeps it as close to Helios teaching as just about anyone. To be a BB under Relson you must obviously have master Gracie Jiu Jitsu, but also ALL of the Gracie Combatives. Helio saw BJJ as a self defense art, that when you enter a fight you should be ready to fight for 3 minutes, or 3 hours. Most other BJJ gyms teach competition specific BJJ, and there is nothing wrong with that. A goal of mine after beating cancer is travel around and train as many gyms as possible.
I guess I was a bit over zealous in saying I am proud to be a member of Team Relson Gracie and Gracie Humaita, and love the differences between our team and others. That's all, no disrespect meant at all.
the combative was put together buy torrance gracie with help from all the instructors.relon sent rhalan to torrance to learn it.did relson teach a lot of the sd,yes but so did rorion
Interesting, Greg teaches a lot of SD, especially for white belts. I would rather be able to defend myself in a fight, than defend myself in a tournament. 
Helio Gracie self defence techniques as demonstrated by Relson Gracie Black Belts - Rick & Phil Miglarise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Aeg926nPCGQ
IMO the old School Self Defence is pretty cool.
DeGrouch - Helio Gracie self defence techniques as demonstrated by Relson Gracie Black Belts - Rick & Phil Miglarise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Aeg926nPCGQ
IMO the old School Self Defence is pretty cool.
but rick and phil learned that @ torrance,they traind there a couple yrs if i remember right.phil had his putrple before he went with relson i think
I used to run into Phil at Torrance in the late 1990s or very early 2000s and he was purple then. I think that was right before he went with relson IIRC
Phil has trained with most of the brothers, and with Helio himself, so you could say he's drinking the pure water.
Sugarfoot -12 -303 -GrapplerX -303 - I am proud to be a member of Team Relson Gracie. He gets overlooked a lot but he was the world champ, and family champ for 22 years. I am lucky to have a instructor who lived with Relson in Hawaii. I know I am biased, but the best Gracie Jiu Jitsu as taught be Helio comes from Relson Gracie.Have you trained with all the other Gracies to know?
No I have not and I understand how that can be a broad statment, but what other Gracie also teaches Gracie Combatives as part of the curriculum? It is no secret Relson keeps it as close to Helios teaching as just about anyone. To be a BB under Relson you must obviously have master Gracie Jiu Jitsu, but also ALL of the Gracie Combatives. Helio saw BJJ as a self defense art, that when you enter a fight you should be ready to fight for 3 minutes, or 3 hours. Most other BJJ gyms teach competition specific BJJ, and there is nothing wrong with that. A goal of mine after beating cancer is travel around and train as many gyms as possible.
I guess I was a bit over zealous in saying I am proud to be a member of Team Relson Gracie and Gracie Humaita, and love the differences between our team and others. That's all, no disrespect meant at all.
the combative was put together buy torrance gracie with help from all the instructors.relon sent rhalan to torrance to learn it.did relson teach a lot of the sd,yes but so did rorionInteresting, Greg teaches a lot of SD, especially for white belts. I would rather be able to defend myself in a fight, than defend myself in a tournament.
for sure ,hes a caique bb.caique woulld not have given him his bb if he didnt know it.
i talk to caique about promotions and the sd is the last requirment for most of the guys.if your not teaching ,its hard to remember all the moves
I have a lot of respect for Relson and someone I know who trains at one of his affiliate schools says he is really cool to have a beer with. I also like that it seems that he teaches and always has stayed true to teaching a more traditional form of BBJ, even when sport BJJ seems to be a trend. However, one impression I have always gotten from stories about the old school BJJ tournaments when he would have been competing is that they were not that big. There was nothing international or even national about them. I am not even sure they were regional. At that time I do not think BJJ was as popular, and I think it was just a couple of jiu jitsu schools from the same lineage holding a local tournament. With a lot of the students just being either hobbyists or kids their parents sent to learn self defense, and the Gracie kids basically training all the time. Plus it had been said that Helio would show his sons the good stuff while teaching all the other students a more remedial and basic style.
Mayweedz - I have a lot of respect for Relson and someone I know who trains at one of his affiliate schools says he is really cool to have a beer with. I also like that it seems that he teaches and always has stayed true to teaching a more traditional form of BBJ, even when sport BJJ seems to be a trend. However, one impression I have always gotten from stories about the old school BJJ tournaments when he would have been competing is that they were not that big. There was nothing international or even national about them. I am not even sure they were regional. At that time I do not think BJJ was as popular, and I think it was just a couple of jiu jitsu schools from the same lineage holding a local tournament. With a lot of the students just being either hobbyists or kids their parents sent to learn self defense, and the Gracie kids basically training all the time. Plus it had been said that Helio would show his sons the good stuff while teaching all the other students a more remedial and basic style.
word. My intructor came from around that era though a bit later. WHen I asked, he said Helio did in fact only teach certain things to students and hold back other stuff. You know what's an example of the type of stuff they held back? It was pulling guard at the time.
one impression I have always gotten from stories about the old school BJJ tournaments when he would have been competing is that they were not that big. There was nothing international or even national about them. I am not even sure they were regional. At that time I do not think BJJ was as popular, and I think it was just a couple of jiu jitsu schools from the same lineage holding a local tournament
Again I'm no historian on the subject and for sure tournaments weren't as big as today, however:
Helio was fighting boxers, savate fighters, capoeira guys and all-comers in the '40s...on national television. They also had the famous running newspaper ad challenge. By 1951 he had fought Kimura. Make no mistake, people know who they were and what Gracie jj was.
Regardless of how popular it was compared to now, think about this...let's downsize it further. Let's say a single school's in-house tournament. Could you remain undefeated for 23 years in just a simple in-house tournament at your school? For 23 years? Undefeated? C'mon man, no matter what, that's a fucken feat right there. I think Relson knows what he's talking about.
Relson won his first tournament at 10, and went on to win the open division. We are lucky enough to have professor Cardella posting here. He would be the authority on this. To say that somehow Relsons accommplishments were not impressive, or in fact amazing is just stupid. His nickname is Campeao, which means Champion. I don't think he would have got that nickname unless he earned it in tournaments both big and small.
I also agree with him that BJJ the way it is today is not what Helio had intended. Relson uses great examples in that regard.
Also, Relson was not bashing his brother for losing, he was getting on his brother because he fought Matt Hughes according to Relson "as a Muay Thai Fighter" and not using Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
Im a big a fan of the Gracies as there is but with respect to Relson, the modern day UFC doesnt really facilitate traditional GJJ gameplan/strategy due to its short rounds and rules. What did he expect Royce to do? He couldnt play guard for an hour..
No, but he did virtually nothing right in that fight. His arms were extended, he didn't try to replace guard, he didn't escape the back well or defend his neck correctly. It was BAD.
yeah I agree. I remember when they did the presser for this fight announcement I was saying to myself 'please dont be royce, please dont be royce' - then they showed a shot of him from behind before they announced his name. I knew it was him...faack
"I'm not going to pretend to know all the intricacies of the times, challenges, and relationships, and yes Carlson avenged Helio in the Sanatana fight. However, it has always swirled around in my mind that the reason there was a fight to avenge in the first place is because Helio was the one out there challenging everyone and taking all-comers. He's the one who challenged and fought Kato and Kimura etc...I hardly think they'd be picking fruit if no one avenged Santana...no one avegned Kimura...at least I'm not aware of a line forming to fight him afterwards."
Helio challenged Santana. And Helio was the head instructor of the Gracie Academy. Santana was his former student and beat the hell out of him. It wasn't good PR. Helio wanted to rematch Santana but Carlos sent in Carlson because he knew they needed the revenge. Carlson,Robson and other Gracies fought challenges and such while Helio was family champion. Then it was Carlson, then Rolls and Rickson as the big dog. When those guys were champions, other family members still fought. And no one "avenged" kimura because Helio was the family champion and dudes like Carlson were still kids. Kimura fought a vale tudo match against Waldemar Santana and it was a draw.
Kimura fought a vale tudo match against Waldemar Santana and it was a draw.
Holy shit I never knew that. Is there any footage of that?
As for losing to Santana, I don't see how losing to him would destroy your reputation especially if he was your student. It's like saying it take a Gracie jj guy to beat Gracie jj. I mean it's not a great thing to happen but it's not like some other style's champion walking in the door and beating Helio.
BigEyedFish - Im a big a fan of the Gracies as there is but with respect to Relson, the modern day UFC doesnt really facilitate traditional GJJ gameplan/strategy due to its short rounds and rules. What did he expect Royce to do? He couldnt play guard for an hour..
I have to say that you are someone I really respect on this forum and usually agree with.
I don't think Relson had any idea that Royce would just stand there and not look for any takedowns. Plus the whole steroid thing. As professor Cardella mentioned Relson is getting older and will say what he wants when he wants, and of anyone, he deserves it.
I still cannot believe that someone tried to make light of Relson being the family, and world champion for 22 years. This is the same Gracie family that took ads out in the paper to try and find the toughest guys to fight. Rickson is the best ever, but Relson earned the nickname champion and deserves the respect he gets.
303 you're right. For whatever reason Royce really didn't seem to even try anything....I just think with the Ufc rules he was handcuffed a little bit orbit least mentally it effected his game planning/execution. He felt the need to try and evolve where some members of his family saw that as a slight. Either way that fight was really tough for me to watch. Royce was such an inspiration to me personally. Plus I had met and trained with him several times in the late 90s traveling across the country twice a year to spend time in Torrance ... 
Let me just point out that the kimura book was "translated" by a notorious anti Bjj guy who slipped some obvious biases in there and made one wonder if it was an actual translation at all...a lot of that translation has become law over the past few years. He claimed kimura and Santana fought but it was pro wrestling as Santana was a pro wrestler etc.
Who knows.