I doubt you learn how to use headbutts, knees, elbows,groin shots and stuff like that in the Basic Gracie Self Defense programm......this looks much different and very.......not alive.
So I think Relsons stuff must be different.
"Phil will show the world a Jiu-Jitsu rarley seen outside of the team. He just needs a shot in UFC, K1, or Pride."
Difficult to showcase with the present rules (early standups),IMO.
"I doubt you learn how to use headbutts, knees, elbows,groin shots and stuff like that in the Basic Gracie Self Defense programm......this looks much different and very.......not alive."
Alo tof the training is done with light-moderate open hand strikes, elbows and heel kick are dropped onto targets rather than driven or strike with the flats of the triceps and forearm . Elbow to the eyesocket are off target for obvious reasons LOL! Sometimes Relson had foam helmets and gloves during the training. You haven't lived till relso has used you for a dummy to demo his pointy ass elbows, heels, choke sand locks. LO!
IMHO it's not so much the strikes that make things better/unique, it the positioning.
Speaking for myself, I'm a competant BJJer, but notthing great and some would say limited in scope. Even as a purple belt, highly skilled and athletic blues could tap me rolling. My game is simplistic, fundamental GJJ/BJJ. My expertise is using Jits to fight. Closing distance, getting the throw/takedown, positionng and striking are what I do best.
I trained under Relson up until 2000 for over 4 years (I was a bluebelt) in his t-shirt class and we did shitloads of his VT stuff. His style of BJJ and his VT stuff are what I'm most comfortable with.
IMHO the "not alive" comment doesn't apply here. It also doesn't apply to the basic GJJ/BJJ self defense curriculum.....IF they are trained properly.
People learn the techniques as they are taught in static form and then never drill/spar them like they would the ground techniques. To me this is pathetic. I've sparred purples who couldn't do crap in the clinch but pull guard. Sure they could tap me rolling, but they've never been hit, never entered the clinch against strikes and sure as shit couldn't pull off a hip/over-leg/head-and-arm/side or back drop throw etc. against a resisting opponent.
I certainly don't care for all of the techniques I was taught, either SD or Relson's VT, this mostly applies to the weapons and some of the standup strikes and counters, but I've supplemented these shortcomings with MMA traininig. As a whole though, the SD and VT techniques are an excellent skillset, if they are trained like one does the rest of the GJJ/BJJ curriculum. This of course is the problem, most hwo train BJJ don't want to take hits or get thrown, those thatr do will train MMA, Judo or maybe wrestling.
I agree with the posts that not all of Relson's VT stuff is good for MMA, he'll tell you the same thing, but alot of it would be great. It also would really be awesome for taking BJJ back to it fighting heritage for those who are willing to learn and train it.
What makes BJJ so good as a style is that rolling against a resisting opponent develops great needed attributes for fighting. This is the foundation all BJJers have and can provide the basis for functional, realistic and "alive" fighting skills.
I don?t meant Relson VT training with not alive. I said that the typical Self Defense stuff (Gracie Street Defense) isn?t alive.
But Relsons stuff sounds good.
Like I posted earlier, The issue of "alive(ness)" is the fault of the practitioner not traiing/sparring those techniques under resisitance like they would the ground techiques. Most of the techniques are sound.
Which specific SD techniques aren't "alive" in your opinion? There are a few i don'tcare for, but I'd have to review some references when i return home next week to be specific.
Oh for God's sake! Take a lesson with the man and ask him to show Gracie Vale Tudo techniques!
You will be enlightened. And you will see what is NOT being taught in about 98% of the academies in the world today.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu is MUCH bigger than just the sport techniques. as far as I'm concerned there are other teams with better sport games, no doubt.
But I wouldn't want to depend on those techniques OR that mindset in a street altercation. When was the last time a guy was SWEPT to DEATH LOL! You should be more apt to headbutt, bite a guys ear, THEN rip his arm off!
I think that would make Relson proud! : )
Relson Gracie teaches the meanest version of jiu jitsu in the world period. Not the flashiest, coolest sport moves.
Not positions that when you do them leave you open for a lot of strikes (upside down guard for example, don't you just want to knee the shit out of a guy's head when he goes there?) How many of you guys have heard a guy say "yeah he taps me but it's different in a cage." Well hell yeah! The difference is the strikes! You can't do the sport moves with strikes involved. But this is all most guys KNOW! And I'm talking about Brazilian Black Belts too!
These differences in the art are what takes you from being a sport player to a martial artist.
I LOVE the sport game! But it is in danger of becoming the grappling equivalent to what sport TKD is to striking. W/ more flash than practicality.
Understand what I'm saying?
Travis Haynes-- Relson Gracie Columbus
UNIFIED TEAM - great post, but I think the problem is that 99% of sport guys have no idea what you're saying
^Amen
Unified- so what is your opinion on rubberguard?
"UNIFIED TEAM - great post, but I think the problem is that 99% of sport guys have no idea what you're saying "
gjj does alot of things that are just no good for sports bjj,from the rnc escape to the standing pass.at gracie we get our back to the mat and will give up the mount to escape the rnc.for sports bjj we will slide dn the body and turn and try to get a leg .
Unified,
"Oh for God's sake! Take a lesson with the man and ask him to show Gracie Vale Tudo techniques!"
I trained in Relson's no-gi class for around 4 years. Spent almost 5 years at his acadamy and was used as a dummy for his VT techniques many, many times. OOOUCH!
"Understand what I'm saying?"
Yes.
I was addressing Zero1's comment about the basic SD stuff, which is also a large part of Relson's training and a requirement for his BBs to know.
How similar is Relson's vale tudo/self defense to the type of jiu-jitsu that Mario Sperry taught on his Vale Tudo series (that I assume came from Carlson)?
I went into Relson's with a very sport oriented attitude. Very rude awakening.
I don't know why, but everytime I read or hear "aliveness" I want to shoot someone (literally). Why? It's something's completely common sense. Practicing something on semi-resisting opponents is better than practicing on someone who's sitting there like a fish. Brilliant. Everyone knows it, but no one bothers calling it something let alone peppering every thread with it as if it's some revolutionary concept that turns what most of us on its head. You guys should even trademark the term and put out a DVD so sheeple can buy it and then jerk each other off over the phone talking about this revolutionary method that everyone with moderate brain function already knew about, only to come on the internet and complain that in fact your level changed very little (save for what would have happened with the pure training time element) and you feel you were ripped off.
That is all.
Sore from all the aliveness in training today.. I'm downloading porn so I can get aliveness on myself..
By the way, I hate sport.
"lol wu,its the same stuff the gracie have taught for years.most of it you learn in the first 6 months"
12,
The last time someone tried putting me into "situations" to see what I do, their analysis of me was: "You're like a bad high school wrestler.".
I've never really learned the self defense stuff. I did one class with GJJ knife stuff, though.
shen:
I'm referring more to the Vale Tudo ground fighting that Sperry shows than the standup "what if someone grabs your collar?" GJJ self defense stuff. Reason I ask is that what people are talking about regarding Relson's jiu-jitsu (ie taking into someone punching you in the various positions) sounds a lot like the stuff that Sperry talks about when he advices against doing some of the traditional BJJ sweeps, escapes, and subs.
Relson folks - does he endorse the use of the triangle in a street/vale tudo situation?
Of the times that I have trained Vale Tudo techniques with Relson, I don't think he ever showed the triangle or advised to do it in a street situation. Most of his advice has been to utilize strikes. I have heard him say that he would choke someone but would not give up position to go for an armbar, he would rather punch and headbutt the guy. Relson loves headbutts.
I used to train at a GJJ affiliate (Rorian Gracie lineage) and when someone asked the instructor about the possibility of using a triangle in a street-fight/self-defense situation, the instructor looked at the person as if he were retarded and pointed out that if you can triangle someone, you are probably well positioned to kick that person in the head and should do so.