Kirik -Choked72 -onepunchJD -Choked72 -watahhh -I came accross this clip online of the Al Bundy guy on Covid and the Kid (who also has Covid) from ages ago.
Adn hes talking about some time he told Bas he was punching people wrong and that he should do it the way Al Bundy does
The level of arrogance you have to have to tell Bas fucking Rutten of all people how to punch when you're just some dipshit actor who likes to train is beyond me.
What a jerk off
Bas Rutten is an actor also.
Extremely high proportion of fixed fights. Ruben was a real MMA match but it goes down hill from there. Incredible how he has maintained his reputation vs someone like Shamrock who gets hassled about bad performances. Yes...but they were real, at least
The works in Pancrase were mostly early on, and fewer than people think.
There were cases where fighters would carry a guy to make a better show, but even that evolved away.
Ironically, it was Ken Shamrock who actually put a couple guys over in Pancrase (Funaki,Suzuki)
It was the only way he could lose, lol!
All of Ken’s Pancrase wins are legit, with the exception of an exhibition with Hume.
His few losses were works.
And that stigma has followed him his entire career, causing people to doubt every one of his fights where something unusual happens.
Ken got started during that transition period in the early days of JMMA – and putting guys over was still ingrained in that culture.
So it’s kind of hard to really blame Ken there.
We didn’t have over 2 decades of sanctioned MMA to compare as some kind of standard.
Most people in the U.S. had never heard of shoot fighting, and certainly not pancrase.
They were either watching boxing, or JCVD movies, LOL!
I very much doubt that Bas had any worked fights.
He struggled against Ken based on a bad matchup.
But other than Ken, Bas has a win over every fighter he ever fought.
And (realistically) second to Ken, Bas was the most dominant Pancrase fighter of that era.
You can’t just throw the evolution of an organization out the window because it has some growing pains before “MMA” was really even a thing.
I would like to see you point out specific Bas Rutten fights you believe to be worked in some way…
OK. Here's one....for posterity's sake Vs Fuke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpI2Wg3jGuM
Watch 3:00 - 3:10. Nice escape, huh? Followed by a knee KO to the liver. Kind of like somebody wrote a story to fit Bas’ profile.
Sorry, but that is a fix.
Bas is a great fighter. And Shamrock is a great fighter but all the guys who came up in Japan have participated in many fixed fights. Good for them, I hope they made some money. But Bas has worked the PR machine far too hard such that people put him in a pantheon of legends when there are plenty of mid tier folks in the UFC over the years that were better fighters in real fights.
I don't want to bicker on the Internet, at all. But that does not look like a work. There was little understanding of a positional basis for MMA then. Guys would sort of hover sometimes looking for a limb to snag. Maybe looks with hindsight like a work, but it was the state of the game then.
I’m not seeking to bicker either and take your point but find it odd that the “hovering” to catch submissions seen in some MMA all seem to happen in Pancrase or other Japanese orgs.
Did we see it in VT from Brazil? No.
Or in the UFC from competent groundfighters, few and far between at the time? No.
Did we see it in Judo? No. Have we ever? Not that I can think of.
Did we see it in BJJ? No.
How about other forms of grappling where submission isn’t predominant? No. Not in amateur wrestling.
Have we seen it in Sambo? No.
We’ve seen more scrambling in Catch, going back a century with video footage, but being tight is fundamental there as well.
Given this, what are we left with as a theory for this style of grappling? Being loose certainly didn’t give any advantage, particularly given that open hand strikes were possible. If we look to different strong style approaches, UWF in Japan comes to mind in particular, we saw a very similar grappling approach. A few Pancrase fighters came from UWF as well. So can inexperience really explain this bizzare and inefficient approach to submission?
I say no. This approach is quite consistent with facilitating predetermined outcomes, however.
There’s an entire world operating above the fighters in the ring when we talk about Japanese MMA. Far beyond Yakuza and all the usual suspects. It goes up to Skyperfect, Fujisankei, the keiretsu who hold media interests in the country…there are massive economic drivers and stakes behind the fight game in Japan. It’s well known and it certainly goes beyond Sumo. Pancrase did not escape this phenomena.
