"so would a bunch of 14 year old middle school mudnamers who have never trained jiu jits but who have watched every UFC and Pride ever."
No shit...
There is no doubt that Rickson is an expert when it comes to BJJ.
IMO the whole Rickson debate stems from the fact that BJJ is NOT MMA.
Now hes just like any other expert in a feild, no different than a legandary boxer for example. If you train MMA and jump in the ring and box with Mike Tyson your going to get owned.
At the birth of mainstream MMA BJJ was an extreamly power art. But MMA has moved on, these days its just a tool like any other. No better, NO WORSE.
I agree that if you go and roll with a man whos done nothing but train BJJ all his days your going to be amazed. I just dont see the point mowadays in training that way.
There is no doubt Rickson is a great man, a legend and if BJJ is your thing then they dont come any better. However if your love, like mine, is MMA then Rickson is a thing of the past. Still a legend, infact only a legend.
legend
.
An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
A body or collection of such stories.
A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times.
One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame.
Would anyone feel any better if they saw him lose?? is it better to destroy a myth or leave it as just that?
Would Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster be more exciting if we knew that they were real and what they were?
Tim Credeur totally nailed it. Thank you.
The only thing I can add is an observation: On this thread and many others I notice a trend .... those who actually fight give Rickson his props, while the "fans" continue to doubt.
John
John Frankl is 100% correct in his observation...
rickson=the shit. i wish i had the funds to go train with him, i would love to see it myself, i dont doubt it one bit, but i would like to roll with the most pure jiu-jitsu practitioner the world has seen, i only wish.... im sure u would learn lots of knowledge just from watching him roll or video tape a session of u guys training, i would love to see his approach, all i really have seen is choke but i hear these stories thats for real and u can only wonder...
A bunch of people keep saying it but no one wants to notice: NO ONE IS DOUBTING RICKSON'S BJJ ABILITIES. We are all complaining that he never fought any real MMA fights with legit opponents. And yes, I knew Rockson died and that is why he cancelled the Sak fight. But you must also know that he later stated that while that was indeed the reason for cancelling it in the first place, he never rescheduled it because Sak had already been beaten by someone else and so this somehow magically meant there was no point in Rickson fighting him. No point except to regain the family honor which he talks about so damn much. I'm guessing that guy on the beach had been beaten before too and so had a bunch of his other opponents. I'm not sure why he all of a sudden only would fight undefeated fighters. So yes, he ducked Sak. No two ways about it.
ttt
"Yea, Shamrock didnt know any subs coming into the UFC."
Great example.
Especially since Shamrock fought Royce to a draw in a 30 minute fight.
Now, can you think of anyone else who was any good at subs?
If I had a son, I would consider naming him Rickson. Another cool name is Renzo. Either way, I would teach my son BJJ.
I know my entry has nothing to do with this thread, but I wanted to throw in a new perspective...
ttt
rickson is the best in bjj
It is obvious that Rickson is the best at BJJ and JJ in general, espeically after what other champions say about him.
wow
Most of you have probabably read Dave Camarillo's account of training with Rickson, but for you newbies:
http://www.onthemat.com/datm_032902.htm
"The evolution of jiu jitsu is heavily dependent on testing one's techniques in competition."
Rarely a more correct and fitting sentence on a Rickson thread.
I dont doubt Rickson is a top bjj player, but this sounds just like any other fighter taking training at 'somewhere different' and saying their level has gone up exponentially.
Let's see if Paulo lives up to this talk.
but Pulsar, Brazilians aren't exactly the type to pump up others and put their friends AND themselves down...they are too proud for that.
Paulo Filho is an undefeated BJJ fighter in MMA who has trained with Liborio, Sperry, Bustamante, etc. and is actually saying that, yes, Rickson can beat him like no other in pure bjj (which I define as rolling around until a tap for the sake of this argument).
Why would Camarillo (an excellent bjj competitor who has trained with Nino, Ralph, Renzo, the best of Barra/California, etc.) write an entire article about the "amazingness" of Rickson? To put himself and all of his mentors down?
a few pages back, a Carlson Gracie/Rodrigo BB in San Diego actually said that after rolling with Rickson (as a purple belt) that he questioned everything he knew about JJ (implying that Rickson was way better than his teachers, eh?)...
these are some very fucking heavy statements.
Camarillo has said similar things about BJ Penn (who has never had his guard passed in any competition ever), and the Penn bros in general, but the thing about Rickson is that his physical attributes aren't insane (in contrast, Penn can put his foot behind his head WITHOUT using his hands!).
Rhadi Ferguson has said that Flavio Canto (the judo black belt/Olympic bronze medalist from Brazil) is the best mat guy he has ever rolled with (and that includes a lot of BJJ black belts as Ferguson is at ATT these days and has trained in Brazil)...APART from Liborio. So, yeah, that makes Liborio the best mat guy Ferguson (a very honest person) has rolled with.
So if Rickson feels even more amazing (to Filho who has trained with Liborio) or to people who are actually already amazing (in general), he truly is amazing at BJJ.
I hear that Yamashita can still take it to people on the judo mats, and I don't doubt that (as he went undeated for 9 years in international comp before retiring)...so some people are just special. Did I question the fairness of putting Rickson in with Yamashita given taht the later had to prove it against the Soviets, etc., sure...but that isn't Rickson's fault (ie. Mundials and BJJ comps in general weren't around that much).
As was pointed out, that doesn't make Rickson a good coach. List the Rickson black belts in the States that can hang with Renzo's boys...doesn't change the fact that Renzo told Kirik that Rickson was "perfect".
Did Rickson miss the boat by not (easily) beating Ken Shamrock following UFC 5 when the UFC was getting 100k plus PPVs and could have challenged Japan's money? Maybe...maybe not. Do I think that Sakuraba (who is the only person to sub Newton, Renzo, and a few others in MMA) could have beaten him, well yes.
Does that make Rickson any less amazing as a near 50 year old? NOPE
Haters have to give up the hating. Fact is that if ANY of us could take a private with Rickson, we would. Hell, when Rickson is Helio's age and probably a bit less in demand (maybe 1k/hour with inflation), I'll hopefully be good enough to make it worth my while to try one...
the carlson lineage is the only REAL jiujitsu. fuck all the other money grubbing gracies and their secrecy bullshit. if rickson knows all this revolutionary stuff about jiujitsu, the asshole should share it with the bjj community if he really gives a damn about jiujitsu. its bad enough to horde secrets because you dont want your opponents to learn them, but to refuse to be completely open when you arent even competing is just bullshit.
"the carlson lineage is the only REAL jiujitsu. fuck all the other money grubbing gracies and their secrecy bullshit. if rickson knows all this revolutionary stuff about jiujitsu, the asshole should share it with the bjj community if he really gives a damn about jiujitsu. its bad enough to horde secrets because you dont want your opponents to learn them, but to refuse to be completely open when you arent even competing is just bullshit."
MMAvIsTerrible, you are an absolute cock smoker. What secrecy? If you go to his academy and ask a question, you will get the Rickson Gracie JJ answer. What I mean is you get the proper answer, not the 'bad' technique answer, while he reserves the 'good' technique answer for his good guys.
So I don't know what you mean by share with the bjj community? Aside from an instructional video, he does all he can to 'share'. That is, he will teach anyone that comes through his doors, and wants to learn.
As far as instructionals, my understanding is that he doesn't feel that people can learn the subtlety, timing and general 'feel' of the technique from a video, which is what makes his jiu-jitsu unique.
Without those things all you would see is a collection of 'basic' moves, and most of the people that get them would dismiss the techniques as 'I already know how to do that'.
I can tell you from personal experience that his technique is different, but you need to feel it to understand it. If you just looked at it from the sidelines or on video, you wouldn't understand the difference from his 'basics' and someone elses 'basics'.
As far as anyone questioning his ability, the only people that do that are people who could barely tap or even hang with a good whit or blue belt.Lets look at who says he is the best - Saulo, Margarida, Camarillo, Renzo, Royler, Helio, Xande, Carlos Valente, Fabio Gurgel, Royce, Paulo Filho etc.
People who don't - Fucktards on internet forums.