Calibur 1980,I salute you!
Yup. Canto, Koji Komoro, Satoshi Ishii was automatically given his brown belt years ago. Sure there are plenty more.
Calibur1980...that was an awesome post. Maybe the best I have seen on here.
Grappling is grappling is grappling. Bjj is slowly becoming more and more deficient in techniques. The more deficient thet become the more deficient they will intentionally become in order to keep "other styles" from being competitive in tournaments. So, if RR doesn't get a bb because she didn't know that you can't reap the leg as part of learning our "comprehensive" system then im sure she could give a crap. Also, lol at having to go through the self defense...imagine telling her that she is blocking punches wrong. Or that she is escaping a hold incorrectly. Its so silly! Bjj is (in my opinion) not a marital art. It is a fighting style which has only been turned into a martial art for dumb americans who will pay 250 per month, plus fees to get their next belt plus uniform fees plus whatever else in order to feel good and say they are bad ass. It won't be too long before a less restrictive rule set (which initially set bjj apart as a grappling style) is clearly a better overall grappling style than bjj. Any bjj person who walked into a GOOD sambo club would be utterly suprised when they keep losing via heel hook or other leg lock. if they go to a good wrestling or judo club they will get tossed on their head. The ibjjf is killing bjj rule by rule. 
Jessy30 -Calibur1980...that was an awesome post. Maybe the best I have seen on here.
Grappling is grappling is grappling. Bjj is slowly becoming more and more deficient in techniques. The more deficient thet become the more deficient they will intentionally become in order to keep "other styles" from being competitive in tournaments. So, if RR doesn't get a bb because she didn't know that you can't reap the leg as part of learning our "comprehensive" system then im sure she could give a crap. Also, lol at having to go through the self defense...imagine telling her that she is blocking punches wrong. Or that she is escaping a hold incorrectly. Its so silly! Bjj is (in my opinion) not a marital art. It is a fighting style which has only been turned into a martial art for dumb americans who will pay 250 per month, plus fees to get their next belt plus uniform fees plus whatever else in order to feel good and say they are bad ass. It won't be too long before a less restrictive rule set (which initially set bjj apart as a grappling style) is clearly a better overall grappling style than bjj. Any bjj person who walked into a GOOD sambo club would be utterly suprised when they keep losing via heel hook or other leg lock. if they go to a good wrestling or judo club they will get tossed on their head. The ibjjf is killing bjj rule by rule.
So much right here I don't know where to begin.
The Principal -Jessy30 - Calibur1980...that was an awesome post. Maybe the best I have seen on here.
Grappling is grappling is grappling. Bjj is slowly becoming more and more deficient in techniques. The more deficient thet become the more deficient they will intentionally become in order to keep "other styles" from being competitive in tournaments. So, if RR doesn't get a bb because she didn't know that you can't reap the leg as part of learning our "comprehensive" system then im sure she could give a crap. Also, lol at having to go through the self defense...imagine telling her that she is blocking punches wrong. Or that she is escaping a hold incorrectly. Its so silly! Bjj is (in my opinion) not a marital art. It is a fighting style which has only been turned into a martial art for dumb americans who will pay 250 per month, plus fees to get their next belt plus uniform fees plus whatever else in order to feel good and say they are bad ass. It won't be too long before a less restrictive rule set (which initially set bjj apart as a grappling style) is clearly a better overall grappling style than bjj. Any bjj person who walked into a GOOD sambo club would be utterly suprised when they keep losing via heel hook or other leg lock. if they go to a good wrestling or judo club they will get tossed on their head. The ibjjf is killing bjj rule by rule.There's so much wrong here, I don't know where to begin.....
Im in this camp. Except for the very last sentence about the ibjjf which I think was correct.
but I should qualify that I dont see the ibjjf as the defining body for what I feel that jiu jitsu is :)
Kind of proves my point how things are arbitrary. You know? Based off of unsubstantiated feelings as opposed to rational evaluation.
A long reasonably thought out post is typed with many points.
Followed by the one line response: "no it's not."
LOL okay guys. 
"It is a fighting style which has only been turned into a martial art for dumb americans who will pay 250 per month,"
I think you have some valid points but this isnt right. BJJ instructors, both Gracie and non-Gracie, have been teaching the multiple aspects of BJJ for years in Brazil. The sporty stuff, the Vale Tudo stuff and the Self-Defense stuff.
<blockquote>Calibur1980 -
Kind of proves my point how things are arbitrary. You know? Based off of unsubstantiated feelings as opposed to rational evaluation. <br><br> A long reasonably thought out post is typed with many points. <br><br>Followed by the one line response: "no it's not."<br><br>LOL okay guys. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
</blockquote>
Gracie Barra and Gracie Academy have curriculums as I believe other lineages do. It could be a marketing tactic, but the GA adopted their Combatives (their blue belt requirements) after Helio's original requirement of his students to learn the 40 moves in private lessons.
For what it is worth, the most commonly accepted direct lineages of BJJ do this. It may be arbitrary, but in my opinion it's very much intentional and the correct way to do it. But it's just my opinion, so not worth getting excited because I could be wrong.
I laid out what I thought were the greater detriments of using solely an ability-based approach and yes, curriculum can lead to bad things (but I feel that is a "slippery slope" fallacy). Subjectivity is easily found for the same reason there are age, gender and weight classes, whereas demonstrating techniques (or attending classes, like Helio advocated among other things like hygiene and esp attitude)... you have to SHOW "this is where your bottom foot goes, this is where you grip, this is where your knee goes" and such. A 60 year old man can show a scrawny 15 year old how to sweep since he's allowed to teach because he proved he knows the technique.
edited to clarify and also add - technically attending the classes is required for belts in Barra and GA, but I believe Barra also grades rolling technique specifically allowing for age, handicaps etc.)
"Any bjj person who walked into a GOOD sambo club would be utterly suprised when they keep losing via heel hook or other leg lock. if they go to a good wrestling or judo club they will get tossed on their head."
This is a very broad statement and in most cases of experienced bjj guys (10 years plus) probably incorrect. If you were to say "most bjj white belts who have never been exposed to another grappling style", you might be right. But most bjj guys who have done this for a long time have cross trained in wrestling, sambo, or judo ( or all three), maybe even some Wiccan Silat, and while they may not be as skilled in the particular techniques of their counterparts, they will probably be able to take precautions so as not to be tossed on their heads or utterly surprised by a heelhook. Not to say either of those things won't happen, but it won't be their first rodeo.
JRockwell -"Any bjj person who walked into a GOOD sambo club would be utterly suprised when they keep losing via heel hook or other leg lock. if they go to a good wrestling or judo club they will get tossed on their head."
This is a very broad statement and in most cases of experienced bjj guys (10 years plus) probably incorrect. If you were to say "most bjj white belts who have never been exposed to another grappling style", you might be right. But most bjj guys who have done this for a long time have cross trained in wrestling, sambo, or judo ( or all three), maybe even some Wiccan Silat, and while they may not be as skilled in the particular techniques of their counterparts, they will probably be able to take precautions so as not to be tossed on their heads or utterly surprised by a heelhook. Not to say either of those things won't happen, but it won't be their first rodeo.
The statement is broad, but I would hardly say that people who have trained BJJ a long time are also likely to be familiar with other grappling arts.
I've met plenty of upper belts who are clueless on footlocks, throws, basic wrestling etc.
For some people BJJ is enough. Also, people who tend to say a grappler is skilled but not proficient at BJJ tend to live in their own Jiu Jitsu bubble and rarely venture out. Kind of how I guy who makes dumb stereotypes probably doesn't travel.
If you ask me i would say that most people felt an obligation to become well rounded a decade ago but it could be my rose tinted glasses or it could be only the people in my area thought NOT being well rounded was an option. People in other areas may have been training different.
Animal Mother -Calibur1980 - Kind of proves my point how things are arbitrary. You know? Based off of unsubstantiated feelings as opposed to rational evaluation.
A long reasonably thought out post is typed with many points.
Followed by the one line response: "no it's not."
LOL okay guys.I would say her transitions would be her Achilles heel. She's had her back taken twice by average grapplers in Mma.
Really? I think her transitions are awesome. First person I've seen transition WELL out of kesa gatame.
She transitions into different armbar set ups better than any fighter except Frank Mir IMO.
She's had her back taken twice and defended fine. The opponent never secures the hooks for very long which is impressive since her style puts her in the lions mouth and every time she leaves with another arm.
Until she stops out grappling her opponent you can't say her grappling isn't working.
...and according to the thread about it on here, her kesa gatame is basically useless, because it's an easy position to escape from.
Agreed about giving up her back, though: she nearly lost against whatever her name was, who she fought in the UFC: a woman with an inauspicious grappling pedigree.
Okay. I guess we will have to wait and see.
She isn't a BJJ black belt because she hasn't come up thru the ranks in BJJ.
Could she do so relatively quickly given her athleticism and judo pedigree? OF COURSE.
BJJ has had a curriculum since its earliest days. Judo does also. They share certain techniques, and diverge on others based on ea. arts' area of concentration.
How do you pass a difficult college level course w/out so much as a text book? You do need to have some base curriculum to start from as a MINIMUM skills test otherwise ther're no guarrantee that the techniques could be passed on correctly from 1 generation to the next. The tests aren't the be all end all, but a reference point. You still have to roll and show competency.
I remember one of the early UFC's,the commentators saying Dan Severn(sp)was given/awarded a Blackbelt in Judo by a sensei at a Judo club he went to train at. I was thinking,that is terrible.I think they even said it was because he could "beat" all of them.
I agree with UNIFIEDTEAM1,You need to know the curriculum and come up the ranks. I have trained Judo and BJJ,and even though they are related arts(same tree,different branch),they are different. Of course,a lot of same chokes and locks,but concepts/tactic's/principles are different.
Regarding Ronda,I also see her giving the back up quite a bit.Sure,she defended well in the last fight,but still,you keep doing that,you are going to get caught with something(submission or strikes). The kesa gatame,I have been in some kesa's of blackbelt Judoka that was torture,and I am sure Ronda's is also,however,it just is not a good position in BJJ or MMA.It exposes the back too much,and if you do escape,the top person end's up in a bad spot.
Don't see why she wouldn't be BJJ black belt level by now. She has been training at Gokar's since she was 13. She has been training Judo her whole life and is olympic level. She may not win the Worlds but she has been training BJJ and has beaten BJJ black belts in grappling.
She may or may not be proficient in the latest sport techs but I bet she can perform sound BJJ fundamentals at a high level and that is all a black belt is. She can also perform them with a skilled fighter trying to punch her in the face!
There's no doubt she is a high level grappler. But that doesn't mean you get an automatic degree in an art you don't train in. Gokor's is a Judo/Sambo school.
BJJ guys don't get an automatic BB in gokor's system just because they are overall tough. They still have to know his particular system. Will they be able to get it faster than a noob? SURE. Same as Ronda w/ BJJ.
People equate high level ground skill w/ a BJJ balck Belt. But you don't HAVE TO TRAIN in BJJ to BE HIGH LEVEL on the ground, nor do you get automatic BB for being tough. It is its own art.
You don't give a boxer off the street a Karate BB because he's tough, or a Karate BB his muay Thai KRU because he's tough. They are different arts that you have to put time in to be recognized in. Doesn't mean those guys from other systems don't have skill & aren't tough, & couldn't earn the rank. It's just that they haven't put the time in to do so.
People need to come to grips that Judo/sambo guys CAN have a high level of aptitude on the ground w/out equating it to BJJ.