UNIFIEDTEAM1 - There's no doubt she is a high level grappler. But that doesn't mean you get an automatic degree in an art you don't train in. Gokor's is a Judo/Sambo school.
BJJ guys don't get an automatic BB in gokor's system just because they are overall tough. They still have to know his particular system. Will they be able to get it faster than a noob? SURE. Same as Ronda w/ BJJ.
People equate high level ground skill w/ a BJJ balck Belt. But you don't HAVE TO TRAIN in BJJ to BE HIGH LEVEL on the ground, nor do you get automatic BB for being tough. It is its own art.
You don't give a boxer off the street a Karate BB because he's tough, or a Karate BB his muay Thai KRU because he's tough. They are different arts that you have to put time in to be recognized in. Doesn't mean those guys from other systems don't have skill & aren't tough, & couldn't earn the rank. It's just that they haven't put the time in to do so.
People need to come to grips that Judo/sambo guys CAN have a high level of aptitude on the ground w/out equating it to BJJ.
I fundamentally agree with you for average people. I trained in sambo for a couple of years before coming to BJJ...I just doubt a olympic level judo player who also trained sambo/submission grappling for over 10 years from a high level instructor would not be able to fill the holes and be BJJ black belt level after training BJJ for a couple of years...and that's Rhonda.
BJJ is one of the most fragmented unorganized arts out there. There is not standardized techniques you must know. I bet she knows the same fundamental techs and can perform them at the same level if not better then most female BJJ black belt hobbyist.
Has Ronda trained a couple of years in BJJ? I know she has trained with the Diaz brothers and probably Henry Akins(who she dated). Never saw where she trained in BJJ until recently.
DarrenMullen,There are standardized techniques in BJJ. Any school or Blackbelt I have ever trained with have emphasized the same fundamental techniques/movements-Shrimping,posture(in someones Guard,Standing,etc;),bridging(upa),positional hiearchy,position before submission,etc;. Personal story of mine-I trained Judo before BJJ,the 1st seminar I attended was with Fabio Santos. He taught a Guard pass as the first technique that day,and he emphasized posture in someones Guard. I had never been taught posture in the Guard in Judo,and remember that I was kind of blown away . He kept calling me "the Judo guy"(he was very nice to me). I asked him that day,What is the difference between BJJ and Judo? Transitions was his answer,also said both have the same chokes and locks,but transitions made it really different.
BJJWRESTLER - DarrenMullen,There are standardized techniques in BJJ. Any school or Blackbelt I have ever trained with have emphasized the same fundamental techniques/movements-Shrimping,posture(in someones Guard,Standing,etc;),bridging(upa),positional hiearchy,position before submission,etc;. Personal story of mine-I trained Judo before BJJ,the 1st seminar I attended was with Fabio Santos. He taught a Guard pass as the first technique that day,and he emphasized posture in someones Guard. I had never been taught posture in the Guard in Judo,and remember that I was kind of blown away . He kept calling me "the Judo guy"(he was very nice to me). I asked him that day,What is the difference between BJJ and Judo? Transitions was his answer,also said both have the same chokes and locks,but transitions made it really different.
Gokor's school doesn't teach shrimping, posture, guard, etc? I was exposed to all these things when I practiced Sambo back in 97 and it was not from a high level instructor like Gokor...I could be wrong. If someone gave her black belt I would not question it...I just assume she is not a "world class" bjj black belt but trust that she has mastered the fundamentals and is comparable to at least the average bb hobbyist.
I'm not saying there is not a big difference between Judo and BJJ cause there is. I just don't believe the BJJ learning curve for someone who has been training "World Class" Judo, sambo, AND submission wrestling damn near their whole life is that steep. It would be sandbagging to the 10th degree if that person entered a BJJ tournament as white belt.
DarrenMullen,I am not saying Ronda is a whitebelt in BJJ,or should start as one.I would have no problem with her up to purple belt. I agree with her background as it is,she should move up pretty quick to Blackbelt,with regular,consistent training.
I just don't believe the BJJ learning curve for someone who has been training "World Class" Judo, sambo, AND submission wrestling damn near their whole life is that steep. It would be sandbagging to the 10th degree if that person entered a BJJ tournament as white belt.
Exactly. I think this also may be why some tournaments allow people to enter a division based on experience or they don't really challenge low-mid belt authenticity (brown and black, yes). I'm not sure how Pans or Mundials, etc. work though.
But white and blue belt are supposed to be technique accumulation belts, maybe purple. This is where they learn the breadth of techniques that make BJJ different and the depth of those techniques that can differentiate one lineage from the next within the same art.
Now if this hypothetical Judo/Sambo/Wrestling expert knows volumes of guard sweeps AND how to grip with the gi in order to maximize leverage, they learned some pretty solid Judo/Sambo/Wrestling! Part of the transitions mentioned above is absolutely where to grip on the gi.
IMO the learning curve for grappling experts is unquestionably shorter overall because of the time they put on the mat. Distance management, timing and pressure/speed are there. But the encyclopedia of GI techniques (some of which are VERY different depending on lineage) must be accumulated and that is still somewhat involved. But if they put their time in to learn the BJJ-specific nuances, they should really cruise through the upper belts where the emphasis is more on putting it all together and developing a game because they already have that, in spades.
In the pic there he's got a white belt. GB states, "It is much of a surprise that Jon Jones will be wearing a Jiu-Jitsu white belt." He's subbed BJJ black belts yet he did not even qualify for a blue belt.
Yep it would suck to compete against him as a white belt or anything in a tourney, but it would be a lot sillier if he taught BJJ as a black belt and never used gi grips.
Animal Mother, that was my point. People keep saying that Ronda gives up her back, so do Bjj black belts like Diaz. They might pay for it but they still do it.
BJJWRESTLER - DarrenMullen,I am not saying Ronda is a whitebelt in BJJ,or should start as one.I would have no problem with her up to purple belt. I agree with her background as it is,she should move up pretty quick to Blackbelt,with regular,consistent training.
if she doesnt know the "curriculum" she is a white belt
if it is based on doing moves and winning she is a black belt
saying it is ok for her to star as a purple has no logic to support it
Wait, so she can't sandbag in the white belt division so us forum members vote her into purple belt? What kind of sense does that make.
Listen, I don't care what rank she has. I believe two things.
1) Good grappling is just good grappling. 2) belts always have been and always will be arbitrary.
Where does all this "knowing the curriculum" nonsense come from. GA may have been using it but in 2002 Carlson Gracie wasn't. (IIRC) Carlos Machado wasn't using one either. I was with Gracie Barra in 2004 and we didn't have curriculums and belt tests until 2006. Not everyone had them. Some schools you just came, learned random moves and literally had a new belt thrown at you when you did something impressive. We gonna pretend that things didn't use to be that way?
BTW, ask Relson Gracie how many intricate gi sweeps you need to know to have a black belt. I'm sure he'll have a very positive response.
Ability has been the only constant in BJJ rank until recently. You can't just waive that and put up false criteria to make it look like a world class judoka couldn't survive in our world.
gusto,I actually agree with you.my purple belt comment for Ronda is based on-Judo and BJJ have a lot of the same chokes and locks,and I am sure with her experience,she is good at those.Plus,she has at least some experience training BJJ,she trained with the Diaz Brothers and Henry Akin,maybe others I don't know of. I was at a BJJ tourney around 3-4 years ago,and saw a kid(18/19 years old)who was a Judo Blackbelt,and not a "hobby" Blackbelt,a guy who competed,not just local,but national tournaments. Also,he did some BJJ training with a BJJ Blackbelt too. What did he enter at the BJJ tournament? White belt. Was that ok? I didnt think so then,or now.
Calibur 1980,when I'm talking curriculum,I'm saying not something official,but the fundamental techniques.BJJ Positions-mount,back,guard,side control,knee on the belly,Position before submission,transitions from position to position,strategy-takedown,pass the guard,cross side to mount. could add others,but you should get the point.
