No problem JR, anytime.
"They felt that sport jj develops habits that puts you in danger in a real fight."
Although I think sport bjj has a place in the overall development of a BJJ athlete, I believe that place to be MUCH smaller than most people would think it actually is.
I've had this POV for about 5 years now. I believe that the ART that the Gracies originally developed and introduced had roots much closer to street-fighting than what we see in current formats of sport bjj (and even MMA). I believe this is the reason why Paul Vunak gravitated towards the Gracies in the late 80's - they had similar views on streetfighting.
I still believe there is still value for myself and my students in prepping for a sport bjj event...but such events should not dictate the majority of our practice (IMHO).
Liyon - "im sure this is based on the average guy ,maybe 2 to 3 yrs of training max.sports bjj and mma have bad habits for certain situations."
True, but the sport aspect of the sport is also how new technique and physical attributes get developed the best.
Seems a bit shortsighted in the grand scheme of things.
what is the grand scheme ? please tell.
is losing 2-0 a big deal or by advantage.my kid rolls and he dont have trouble with many.he gracie taught
4 Ranges - "They felt that sport jj develops habits that puts you in danger in a real fight."
Although I think sport bjj has a place in the overall development of a BJJ athlete, I believe that place to be MUCH smaller than most people would think it actually is.
I agree.
When competition becomes the focus rather than an aespect of BJJ, I think it has gone significantly off-course from what it was originally intened to be.
Americans fell in love with BJJ because of it's success as a FIGHTING art. They were not "awed" by sport BJJ. They were awed by what they saw a well trained BJJ practitioner could do against other styles.
If Rorion Gracie had televised a sport BJJ competition instead of a No Holds Barred style vs. style fighting competition, this forum would not exist today. Almost no one would have said: "Wow! I want to learn that!"
FatBuddha - "I am suprised they don't support sport BJJ tournaments. They had there own which was set up for no points, and no time limit. What ever happend to that?"
I competed in that 2 times. They decided that even that kind of thing watered down the training for only a real fight. In discussions with direct Helio students like Pedro Valente they came to the conclusion that sport jiu-jitsu training was taking time away from being 100% prepared for a real fight.
Here we go back to the Judo/Jiujitsu thing all over again. Didn't Kano bury this topic a century ago? The physical attributes developed by doing the relevant sport form are WAY more important than slow drilling whatever self defence technique that GracieBJJ teaches. Do you really think Ryron and Rener would stand a chance against GSP, Anderson Silva, Chuck lidell, etc? If your counterpoint is that those are trained opponents, and a street fight doesn't usually involve those, then I don't need their particular brand of BJJ, because even a "sport BJJ" trained athlete can defeat a regular joe in a one on one with no weapons.
Shen,
I agree with you but things have changed. Alot of BJJ pracitioners talk about the next tournament or instead of referring to their instructor as well their instructor, it's my "coach." So the instructors are simply catering to their students. They themselves may lack interest in MMA but come from a sports BJJ background. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But I believe there can be a happy medium between sports BJJ, self defense, and MMA.
Alphabeta - Shen,
I agree with you but things have changed. Alot of BJJ pracitioners talk about the next tournament or instead of referring to their instructor as well their instructor, it's my "coach." So the instructors are simply catering to their students. They themselves may lack interest in MMA but come from a sports BJJ background. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But I believe there can be a happy medium between sports BJJ, self defense, and MMA.
the more choices the better,the sd is what the gracies offer.with all the schools,you can pick what you like.
but dont be fooled you can compete and win with gracie jj
even if you dont train for tournie.
4 Ranges - "They felt that sport jj develops habits that puts you in danger in a real fight."
Although I think sport bjj has a place in the overall development of a BJJ athlete, I believe that place to be MUCH smaller than most people would think it actually is.
I've had this POV for about 5 years now. I believe that the ART that the Gracies originally developed and introduced had roots much closer to street-fighting than what we see in current formats of sport bjj (and even MMA). I believe this is the reason why Paul Vunak gravitated towards the Gracies in the late 80's - they had similar views on streetfighting.
I still believe there is still value for myself and my students in prepping for a sport bjj event...but such events should not dictate the majority of our practice (IMHO).
So true... I have the same opinion. More than this I don't have a timer (for the 5 min. frame) for the sparring session. If we have a competition (only 2 a year here in Romania) we use it just 2 weeks before. I tell guys I don't care about the results, cause I don't like the format of sport BJJ comps. MMA, although, it's different...
Here is the crux of it, then.
I have no problem with The Gracie Academy taking their teaching back to the roots and leaving competition bjj behind altogether, BUT the students should then be expected to fight in class or against walkins, with UFC 1 rules, like some did in the old days. Otherwise, you fall into the trap of TMA.
Fighting theory is great, self defense training is important, and being aware of the limitations of a sport approach is definitely needed, but without the adrenaline and unrestrained aggression of a competition experience, it's hard for a student to ever know what will work for him in a stressful situation.
If the rules promote an overly unrealistic set of circumstances for a fight, I dont think there's anything wrong with tweaking them somehow, but I think it's a mistake to avoid competition altogether because it isn't realistic enough.
Training is never realistic "enough", if that's the case. We all train on mats, yet we dont defend our lives on them. We all can stop when we're tired, not show up when we're feeling sick, and train with the assurance that we arent going to get too badly hurt. None of those aspects of training are available on the street, yet we realize that we try to do the best we can to prepare without actually training in the parking lot.
Alphabeta - Shen,
I agree with you but things have changed. Alot of BJJ pracitioners talk about the next tournament or instead of referring to their instructor as well their instructor, it's my "coach." So the instructors are simply catering to their students. They themselves may lack interest in MMA but come from a sports BJJ background. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. But I believe there can be a happy medium between sports BJJ, self defense, and MMA.
Oh I realize things have changed.
That "happy medium" is exactly what I am in favor of. The art of BJJ is supposed to have those three facets, not just one of them.
But BJJ is becoming a pure sport --which is the same thing that has happend to every martial art that has a sport element to it; the sport side takes over and REPLACES the larger art as a whole.
andre - Here is the crux of it, then.
I have no problem with The Gracie Academy taking their teaching back to the roots and leaving competition bjj behind altogether, BUT the students should then be expected to fight in class or against walkins, with UFC 1 rules, like some did in the old days. Otherwise, you fall into the trap of TMA.
I see your point but the live rolling is what makes them different than your average TMA.
Wait...so if live rolling does the job, and live rolling is nothing like a real fight, how is it any better than competition?
I really respect the brothers and I think the Gracie Academy is an awesome place, but I wish they would find a competition format that fits, as much as possible, their outlook on training.
No amount of live rolling can give you the same benefits you'd get from competition.
ttt
for later.....
There is a lot of really good discussion on this thread. When I begain BJJ, there really was no tournament scene. I like competition, but I also very much like the idea of BJJ as teaching 3 things: self defense, sport bjj, and vale tudo/mma.
Of course there is overlap among these three categories. You will be better at self defense if you train like an athlete. You will be better at mma if you train self defense. And you will stay in bjj longer and enjoy it more if it is more than just winning silly medals. Etc.
All that said, this clip--http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.frame--sort of contradicts some of the assertions above about the Gracie Academy focusing purely on self defense.
John
This thread actually took a turn for the better.
JoejitsuMD -12 - but dont be fooled you can compete and win with gracie jj
even if you dont train for tournie.
Has anybody from the GJJ Academy not named Gracie won anything significant ever? Not a dis, an honest question. I know the GJJ students used to always get absolutely mauled at the BJJ tourneys in the late 90s and it was common thought that Rorion purposely held back technique and the students simply were not that good. I know things have changed a bit since Ryron and Rener and teaching, but I still have never heard of any GJJ Academy student making waves.
Joe
no and your right and an honest statment.not to many guys makes waves but are good .my kid as always done well in comps and never gets ready for them ,he just shows up and what ever happends happends.my kid lost to easton 2-0 at the otm tournie so his bjj cant be that bad .we have some young kids comming up that do well.
we had purple belts lose by refs choice at the worlds in the 3rd round
all the advanced players left with caique or royce so it will take awhile to see what hte boys can as coaches.
Andre,
I agree competition is better than just live rolling and for that matter MMA is a step above sport BJJ. I am just saying comparing them to an average TMA is kind of harsh. The GJJ student will at least know who to deal with someone trying to resist their submissions. And the GJJ student will be learning proven techniques.
I didnt mean to really compare the Gracie Academy to a TMA. I really, really love the GA, and I think highly of the staff and students there. I just dont think doing away with competition is a step in the right direction.
andre - I didnt mean to really compare the Gracie Academy to a TMA. I really, really love the GA, and I think highly of the staff and students there. I just dont think doing away with competition is a step in the right direction.
you wont be the first andre ,a few guys want a comp team.