Like any aspect of martial arts training, it becomes detrimental to the overall development of the artist if the training focus is narrowed to one aspect significantly. Tournaments are one such aspect. I definitely agree with the theory that the practitioner will be better off in a self-defense situation even if they only train for competition rules, but for pure live combat with no rules, they will be hindered to a degree. The supposed difference is that a practitioner can "switch" from techniques that are "not o.k." to them in a self-defense situation. A good example would be training to knee the gut instead of the groin. If I am in a real fight, can I decide to knee the guy in the junk on the fly, or will my training take over, I become motorset, and continue to knee him in the stomach? That is a whole other thread...
I really only like competition for one reason - having to grapple against someone who is trained to fight, will resist completely, and react in (possibly) highly unexpected ways in a controlled environment. That being said, I guess you could recreate this if you decided to become a dojo-stormer. However, the competitors are still agreeing not to slam each other, punch, kick balls, etc.
Competition is also about advertising and marketing, let's not forget. Anybody who has a team out there that is doing well is perceived to have a superior training style, or a better gym or better teacher.
Whoever said something about training in the parking lot is right on though. Lets go get our crappy old Gi and train in the parking lot! I will not be jumping guard...
About Ryron and Rener, subscribe to their YouTube account(GracieInsider), they post a vid about once a month. Seems like they are doing lots of seminars and law enforcement stuff these days.
TBoy2 -andre - Here is the crux of it, then.
I have no problem with The Gracie Academy taking their teaching back to the roots and leaving competition bjj behind altogether, BUT the students should then be expected to fight in class or against walkins, with UFC 1 rules, like some did in the old days. Otherwise, you fall into the trap of TMA.
I see your point but the live rolling is what makes them different than your average TMA.
But you can't use those self defense techniques in a live roll.
Are you going to elbow your students to practice the techniques? So you're back to TMA style dead drilling...
Thanks Kneeblock!!!! I stand corrected. I think Jesse Glover was one Bruce Lee's first students, my bad. Also thanks for agreeing with the rest of my post. As I said before its just my opinion after actually WATCHING those matches.
But you can't use those self defense techniques in a live roll.
Are you going to elbow your students to practice the techniques? So you're back to TMA style dead drilling...
That would be true if they only trained the self defense techniques. I have not been to the GA but I assume they also live roll. I know Rickson's school live rolls because I used to be a part of his association.
i think before dana does that...they need to work on their strking for a looong time. ralek fought in japan and he still fights like royce did in the first ufc's. that front push kick into a takedown...they need to go work on either their thai boxing or boxing before you throw any of them into the ufc.
wasup 12 and Rick T, hows life treating you guys? i hope good. tell jordan i said wasup.
This thread DID get interesting.
So....is everyone in agreement?
1) Live rolling is an important training method in BJJ.
2) Live rolling against partners who ONLY grapple (aka "sport BJJ") is a good training method, but limited in scope when considering the many possibilities of a "real world self-defense situation".
3) There is nothing wrong with practicing techniques for other self-defense considerations (beyond the needs of rolling against other BJJ guys), but to simply practice these techniques statically is insufficient when compared with the attribute development that training methods like live rolling provide.
Reading into these, it certainly sounds like most of us would say...
4) Training the "self-defense techniques" using dynamic training methods that resemble the dynamic, responsive nature of live rolling BUT also contain variables not present in sport BJJ rolling (striking, weapons, other kinds of attacks) would be VITAL to developing skill.
One example would be a partner trying to punch you in the face while you try to gain control of him using the "self-defense techniques". I think this training method is fairly typical of "traditional" BJJ academies like the GA. I know in the very few classes I took there, such training methods were present.
Thoughts?
~Chris
^^^Good summary.
John, your link doesnt work?
This is a really good discussion, but almost a bit funny. Afterall, we all like think that we're "evolved" modern martial artists, but one could say that this is a conversation right out of the early 1900s, although we'd be in Japan discussin Kano and his school, not the Gracies.
Eljamaiquino is right...Kano covered much of this, and this is EXACTLY the course that Kodokan Judo took, once the sporting aspect of Judo superceded the whole art/science. When asked about Judo in the Olympics, Kano was ambiguous, stating that only a single aspect of judo practice, the Shiai (competitive randori) was well-suited to a sporting event; and that this is a narrow view of the greater vision of his Judo (self-defense, culture, budo...etc). Now, because of the Western penchant for sport and some historical circumstances (WWWII for example), Kodokan judo moved further and further away from it's original conception, and gravitated to the sport (albeit a great sport) that we see in the Olympics (where the budo aspects are mere glimmers of the tradition that was once the foundation of the art).
The more I love bjj, the more I realize that Kano was right, and that he encountered all of these issues already. He eliminated the "deadly" self-defence stuff, not only for safety, but because gross-body movements were harder for his students to learn, and he wanted them to learn to react well and strongly. Learning to poke in the eyes, or nut-kick is much more useful after you've mastered a good throw, so that the combo was deadly.
We have the same thing with bjj. Any sport player can reduce the "sporting" aspect of his game, and head-butt and what not, if they are aware of these elements. If they're not,then they're in for a bit surprise, and missing teeth.
Kano was about honesty and balance in training (and in life!). So, it's interesting to see someone like Saulo who is setting up his University in a very similar fashion to the Kodokan's original vision. The top Sport Bjj icon (at least of the 90s and early 2000s) returning to a wholistic approach to the art.
The circle continues to turn......
Oh...and for Rener and Ryron:
Although perhaps well intentioned, competition can always foster both good and bad habits. You just have to keep that in check when training, and not take bjj tournaments to be "real" fights.
Isolating themselves, I would argue, is not the way to get back to reality....competing, and proving their basic method is effective (which is what they were doing), would be the best way to show that they are still relevant.
In my opinion....
Fernando Salvador - wasup 12 and Rick T, hows life treating you guys? i hope good. tell jordan i said wasup.
whats upppppa,doing well on this side ,when you and your brother going to head out this way ? im tequilla ready. jordans working 2 days for a contractor,going to school 2 days and teaching at the academy 2 days.i think he wants his bb now,so hes going to start training a little more.he hopes to get it when he turns 20 or 21
Baki,
I agree.
Now, to keep progressing, we must ask ourselves:
To what extent are Kano-Sensei's original excluded techniques still necessary for exclusion today?
Considerations:
1) The technology of our safety equipment has greatly advanced. We can wear groin protection, eye protection, mouthguards, gloves, and the like. We can use safe training weapons.
2) Our understanding of randori and other dynamic training methods has evolved. We are fortunate to stand on the shoulders of the generations passed and to learn from HOW they trained. Have we found new insight? Have we developed more than what they gave us?
One perspective: because of the above considerations, we can participate in MMA and other similar training methods, which is what Kano had in mind (training whatever we can do safely, as realistically as we can). We ought to be adding in anything we can, if it's combative skills we're after.
A different perspective: using training methods that isolate skillsets allows us to develop more depth within those skillsets than mixing them together all the time. (Greco is a perfect example, though any art will do.) Do we develop our "MMA ground skills" better by an exhaustive investigation of BJJ, or should we have spent that time just doing "MMA ground work?"
This seems to be a major question in today's MMA-based demographic, but I see it as having ramifications for all of us.
Anyone?
~Chris
IPU,
I think the "sparring" mentality only applies to training methods in which both partners are competing. What about training methods in which one partner trains the other? In trainer/trainee exercises, you can "explode and overwhelm" and then flee. In fact, you can specifically train doing so.
I also think that training scratching, clawing eyegouging, and groin stomps is quite possible given advances in safety gear and our understanding of training methods.
Certainly, I agree that none of this training is NECESSARY in order to survive a self-defense situation in the real world. I think the best anyone has ever asked for is that it brings the odds as much in our favor as possible.
This might provoke the next question, which is:
If one of the most essential attributes for success in a real-world situation is the mindset and psychological approach of the intended victim, what training methods are we using (or OUGHT we use) to develop this aspect of training?
~Chris
I really think this is all being overthought.
InvisiblePinkUni - ^^^
Andre, a lot of it is a mental game, I think 99% of people who train martial arts would freeze and mentally panic in a real life serious criminal attack.
I think athletes are the least likely to freeze up when in a situation that requires physical action AND thinking under pressure. Anything else is just LARPing, imo.
andre,
I agree that athletes have "been there" and have a certain level of wherewithal in stressful, dynamic situations that others will probably not have.
I also agree that some training methods border on LARPing...lol.
But what about training methods that either (1) involve higher levels of psychological pressure than rolling/sparring, or (2) include variables (biting, etc) such that even most athletes haven't "been there" or "done that"?
At what point is it being over-thought? I don't think many people think about their training methods at all. And isn't that why BJJ/MMA/Jigoro Kano offered such a revolution over the status quo?
~Chris
This is a great discussion. Greater still that it is on the BJJ forum.
What I like about these ideas is that, because BJJ is still very "open source", it involves all the aspects we are discussing here. The accepted eclectic is "use grappling techniques that work". That is a more modern and narrow approach,more sporting, lesser than what Kano or the original Gracies had in mind; specifically "use what works". If you watch the old "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Basics" tapes, you see a lot of those takedowns initiated with the front kick, or common "street" headlock escapes and such. This is a more self-defense based curriculum IMO, aka a more rounded approach. Most self-defense situations won't involve passing half-guard in a technically-sound manner as one example. I say that in reference to passing John Q. Streetfight's half guard, as I know someone will try to catch me saying that, in order to be dangerous on the streets, one must not need to know how to pass half-guard very well.
A good question would be "what level of preparedness do you desire?" Do you wish to walk around knowing how to deal with the angel-dust-infused mugger who would bite you if you mounted him, or would you rather focus on developing a winning guard strategy for tournament application? That effects your mat time a great deal.
Whenever I think about my training methods, it forces me to think about my overall development as a martial artist. If I focus on winning tournaments, that is what I will be good at. If I focus on defending myself by any means necessary, that I what I will be good at. The question of crossover is generally answered by two things IMO, (1) The awareness of the particular artist at any given time and (2) The experience level of the artist at any given time (propensity to initiate a visceral reaction, aka attack or defend automatically without thinking).
If BJJ is a game or hobby, these things may not be of great consideration. If BJJ is a way of life, these things may need some sort of conclusion, lest the big picture have blurry corners. It may be over-thinking to the casual athlete, or to someone who isn't concerned with these questions IMO. Like Chris said, many people don't think about their training methods at all.
I say it's overthinking because I've been in several real-life "self-defense" situations (gun pulled on me, jumped by several people, brick to the face, bouncing, etc...) and it really came down to gross movements, conditioning, luck, and the willingness to fight or run.
Training for competition and competing virtually guarantee that you are physically prepared for a fight. Scenario training doesnt. Theory doesnt. Competition also places you uncomfortably in a position where you HAVE to act under pressure and make decisions based on an aggressive opponent who moves in an unpredictable manner--what I mean by unpredictable is that due to the fact that you face several different people in competition, you are constantly having to adjust to new and different "attacks" or approaches. You have to have such a grounding in your basics that your technique can accomodate a situation you didnt specifically prepare for.
The variables on the street are endless, so trying to narrow them down to various situations seems a bit pointless to me. In my opinion, it is much better to be in the best possible shape, and build an offensive mindset in training and competition.
Back to the Laimon vs. Ryron match real quick, I think Rorion tried to change the rules right before the match didn't he?
I never saw the match - just heard about it. Lots of respect for both Gracie Torrance and Laimon.