CRBMoney14 - Who really gives a shit about the UFC HOF?
you can't be serious
Why? He's right. The UFC HoF means nothing as an independent, legitimate HoF - one that is actually based primarily on merit and accomplishment. If it were, Frank Shamrock would without question have already been inducted, as he was without question the greatest UFC Champion since Royce.
MASK is even in the freakin' UFC HoF - ahead of guys like Frank, Don Frye, or even Miletich (who, while a lackluster "champion," was one of the most seminal trainers ever).
What gets you into the UFC HoF is being on good terms with the owners - who then entirely (and arbitrarily) decide who gets in. Being friends with the UFC owners defines who is a UFC "Hall of Famer" more than actual greatness as a fighter, Champion, or coach.
The UFC HoF has no objective credibility, and no meaningfully authoritative, merit-based standard. It is not some lofty distinction of transcendent greatness reserved strictly for only the most deserving - as much as it is a marketing tool and distinction of favoritism.
reddsharkk - i have some points that people might not like:
Vitor doesnt belong in the UFC hof because he had very few title defenses. And he jumped ship too many times. And he just quit in many of his losses. Plus its fact that he used PEDs. Probably more than we know.
Yes he is an exciting fighter, but not quite hof material.
He was hall of fame after his first five fights. If someone watched the UFC and didn't know his name, they probably didn't know their own. Every fighter sure the hell knew. He's first ballot if any one is.
Since we can put active fighters in, why not penn gsp and andy?
And his first five ufc fights were One pec telligman, fat fucks ferrozo and tank, a loss to couture and then he beat the most feared fighter in history...sam joslin(lol). So how does this qualify him for the ufc hof again? And i was watching back then. He has never been a Randy or Chuck. He is good, but not great.
I don't get the sam joslin thing. Running through Vanderlei was legendary. All the fighters inducted back at UFC45 were active or fought since, so yeah throw in Penn,GSP, and who's andy ? You mean Randy ? He's already in. Gimme a break he's no Randy or Chuck. Chuck landed one effective strike on the "old" Vitor, which happened to win him the fight. Randy ? Hell, nobody is Randy.
He's qualified because he's the best damn puncher to ever walk in the octagon, and every fighter knows it. Without hesitation he's hall of fame. Did you know Tank is hall of fame ? Taktarov ? Frye ? K.Sham ? Tell me how they have surpassed who Vitor has fought, or if they'd last 2 minutes with him.
Before you answer, know thatI don't put that much weight in UFC belts. I do put weight in fame. And in the UFC and around MMA, he's got it.
Sorry ^^^ "Viewers choice" HOF
Same dif
UFC has "political problems" that prevent certain true HOF'rs to accept that amazing honor.
reddsharkk - i have some points that people might not like:
Vitor doesnt belong in the UFC hof because he had very few title defenses. And he jumped ship too many times. And he just quit in many of his losses. Plus its fact that he used PEDs. Probably more than we know.
Yes he is an exciting fighter, but not quite hof material.
He was hall of fame after his first five fights. If someone watched the UFC and didn't know his name, they probably didn't know their own. Every fighter sure the hell knew. He's first ballot if any one is.
Since we can put active fighters in, why not penn gsp and andy?
And his first five ufc fights were One pec telligman, fat fucks ferrozo and tank, a loss to couture and then he beat the most feared fighter in history...sam joslin(lol). So how does this qualify him for the ufc hof again? And i was watching back then. He has never been a Randy or Chuck. He is good, but not great.
Typical fashion is to give someone who is past their peak a hall of fame spot, not people who are still champs. They can use the pride boost of the HOF to counter the ego blows of having started losing to the new generation.
I don't get the sam joslin thing. Running through Vanderlei was legendary. All the fighters inducted back at UFC45 were active or fought since, so yeah throw in Penn,GSP, and who's andy ? You mean Randy ? He's already in. Gimme a break he's no Randy or Chuck. Chuck landed one effective strike on the "old" Vitor, which happened to win him the fight. Randy ? Hell, nobody is Randy.
He's qualified because he's the best damn puncher to ever walk in the octagon, and every fighter knows it. Without hesitation he's hall of fame. Did you know Tank is hall of fame ? Taktarov ? Frye ? K.Sham ? Tell me how they have surpassed who Vitor has fought, or if they'd last 2 minutes with him.
Before you answer, know thatI don't put that much weight in UFC belts. I do put weight in fame. And in the UFC and around MMA, he's got it.
Andy is Spider.
Kimbo is famous, yet none would argue he is hof material. I dont thingk Tank is HOF. Frye maybe. Oleg....no. And I dont care that he is still a more competitive fighter than those guys. All of the fighters in the UFC hof right now, announced their retirement or had Dana and Rogan talk for them.
Yes Andy is HOF material. Were not talking backyard brawl/internet/CBS fame, were talking UFC, which Vitors has been in, around, on top or in contention since '97.
Vitor is certainly not some kind of unquestionable Hall of Famer. Not at all - at least not based on actual accomplishments and consistent dominance. His HoF-worthiness is, at the very least, very debatable (as this thread in itself evidences).
For most of his career, Vitor was actually most-known for being one of the most inconsistent fighters ever - and had definitely been, overall, a disappointment for his career, before his current win streak.
And this current win streak is actually the best of his entire career, due to his wins over Franklin and Lindland. But up until those 2 wins - Vitor had not decisively beaten more than one top-level opponent in a row for over 12 years - since 1997, when he beat Telligman and Ferrozzo to win the UFC HW tournament, and then followed that up with a big win over Tank at the time.
Vitor had been the very model of extreme ups-and-downs for his career - and mostly downs, up until the last couple of years.
When Vitor first came in, he was this mind-blowing juggernaut - representing the next level of invincible - a cross between a Gracie and Mike Tyson, who, at 20 years old, was supposed to be ruling over NHB for at least the next decade. He was the "#1 fighter on the Carlson Gracie Team," who the UFC claimed was on the level of Rickson on the ground - along with being an "Olympic-level" boxer who blew people away on the feet, before it could even get to the ground anyway.
Then, as the invincible #1 - he got shockingly, brutally dismantled by Randy in one of the biggest upsets ever.
Then he moves down to 200, and annihilates a top rising prospect from the IVC in Vanderlei Silva. And suddenly, Vitor was back - and at the lower weight, seemingly better than ever, since he still seemed as powerful as he was at HW, only even quicker. Which actually represented the first-ever reincarnation of "old Vitor."
(And btw, why were there even all these recurring, decade-long cries of "old Vitor" returning in the first place? Because the new Vitor that had emerged over the next decade had hardly lived up to the promise of "old Vitor" at all.)
Then right after "old Vitor" had been resurrected at under-HW (and was being hyped by the UFC for a title fight against Frank) - Vitor gets tooled by Sakuraba in his very next fight.
And these abrupt drop-offs were pretty much representative of Vitor's career for the next decade - where he never put together a real sustained run. Where his best wins then were a lackluster decision over Yvel, an extremely controversial decision over Herring (in the most notorious example of the 10/15-kilo. rule in effect), and the flukish, non-definitive cut-stoppage "win" over Randy to become the official UFC titleholder at 205.
THOSE were his best wins for over a decade (and only the Yvel one had been definitive) - before his back-to-back wins over Lindland and Franklin in 2009. (Although along the way, Vitor had also given very creditable performances against Chuck and Tito - only losing a very close and competitive decision to Chuck, which Chuck just edged out with that flash knockdown in the last round - and losing an extremely controversial decision to Tito, where Vitor actually dished out more of a beating to Tito than the other way around.)
Vitor has definitely had some of the greatest longevity ever - but certainly not some of the greatest consistency ever. Actually, Vitor has been one of the most wildly inconsistent fighters in MMA history.
For MOST of his career, Vitor has not been a consistently dominant force or HoF-worthy fighter at all - and was NOT generally considered HoF-worthy for his career, up until his current run, up until 2009, with his 2 big wins over Lindland and Franklin. (But before that, for over a decade, he had lost to MOST of the top-level fighters he had faced.)
Watcha you mouth WB. Cause the fact that every fan knows exactly what this guy has done is proof in my book. After that, as said before, we talk criteria. That would certainly open a tighter debate.(Vitor was a war machine with Sak until the broke hand yeah ?)
NarlyPersianDude - Absolute yes. Idiotic for anyone to say no. Even before his new edition. He might have been the first true mixed martial artist. Ken Shamrock gets the credit for that...
Exactly. Some say Ken, some say Don Frye, others could argue for Guy, but watch those early UFC's. Vitor was double scary.
Most people actually say Marco Ruas
Exactly. Thank you. Most people were certainly NOT calling Ken Shamrock the "first true mixed martial artist" after his performances in the first few UFC's. Ken became better with his striking later. (And LOL @ whoever suggested Oleg.)
The first guy people were really calling the first well-rounded fighter in the UFC - literally "the new Ultimate Fighter" - was Ruas after UFC VII. Ruas turned out to be a disappointment overall for his career - but he was still the first guy to combine stand-up striking skills with submissions on the ground, and decent TD's, to win the UFC. Don Frye was called well-rounded as well for being the first successful boxer-wrestler combo to dominate and win the UFC.
Then Vitor was supposed to be the next step up from that - the new evolution of invincible.
Off topic, but Oleg should be in. Won UFC 6, went the distance with arguably the best fighter at that particular time Ken Shamrock at UFC 7, then was the runner up in the Ultimate Ultimate beating Ruas to get to the finals.
Dznuts - Should fighters that test positive be inducted into the hall of fame?
Why not ? Because the others weren't caught ?
I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that all mma fighters are using performance enhancers or only those that win or that using performance enhancers is irrelevant?
In most sports the use of performance enhancers is considered cheating. Is it considered the same in MMA?
I'm saying that it is so interlaced in ALL sports, that whether or not someone has tested positive at the particular time they are tested, is irrelevant.