I remember Mike Chapman saying that Martin Burns loved the bent knee (compression) lock and taught it to Gotch who used it some, this would have been right around 1900. Don't know how long Burns had been using it but I'd assume well before that.
Here's a little something from Burn's "School Of Wrestling"
"In my opinion there is very little in the so-called Jiu-Jitsu teaching that is not included in a full and complete knowledge of catch-as-catch-can wrestling. There are, of course, a few holds and defenses, such as the throttle hold, the strangle hold, etc., that are not used in wrestling, yet these holds are generally understood by the throughly trained wrestler."
Doesn't address leg-locks, but Burn's grappled with a number of JJ /Judo men, I'd assume if they were something new to him they would have been mentioned.
"Soooo...., are you saying that Catch leg holds have little influence from either JJ or judo? Then I have to go back to my original question - Why is it called a "Japanese Toe Hold"?? "
That's a very good question.....upon farther review ;)
The photos and captions used on this thread came from a book first published in 1931, by then works had over-taken the wrestling business and showmanship was taking hold. I wonder if just a few years before those same holds would have been called something different?
I would however still assume a jj/judo connection to the achilles lock. The oldest photo of a heel-hook or achilles lock that I've seen is of Ad Santel and I don't know exactly when it was taken. Could well be after his visit to Japan.
Right, Ad "The 1st World Judo Champion" Santel ... ;)
It must be the Sumo wrestlers who had leg locks (...ok, just kidding).
ttt
BackDrop-Higashi was not a judoka and didn't do "Kano" anything, but you've got the idea. It shows that Kano's name was hot enough at the time to steal it for his book. As late as 1918, Yamanaka published a book called Jiu-Jutsu or Jiu-Do: Selections from the Kodokwan Method There is no connection between Higashi and Leonard other than they did an interview for an article together. You can find it here: http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htmLeonard, Bothner, and others stepped up when Higashi was talking smack and Bothner actually wrestled Higashi (wearing a gi) in 1905 and won. Leonard was the wreslting instructor at NYAC for years before that and wrote his book in 1897. He was also often sought to ref matches, as he had a good ref rep.Now, I've never been one to push the submissions in catch wrestling, mainly because I think of catch in terms of the "Golden Era" before 1910 or so. But it is clear that some wrestlers at that time were using leg locks, such as Gotch, who was famous for his step over toe hold.I don't really follow later pro-wrestling much, so I have no idea what the influence was behind calling that a Japanese Toe Hold.
"Bothner actually wrestled Higashi (wearing a gi) in 1905 and won."
I had forgotten about that. I had read it several years ago and then it had slipped my mind, along with a few thousand other things.
Hissho, now known as Tactical Grappler, has chimed in at the Authentic Jujutsu thread.
Bull - please come over there - love to know where you got your information from RE: jujutsu.
How do you guys get all this Info on Catch/Submission Grappling? I just got George Hackenschmidt's book and will soon get the 2 Frank Gotch biography's. Are there any other books I should get? Anything on Farmer Burns (besides his course), Joe Stecher, Ed Lewis, Zbyszko, George Tragos and/or Jim Londos?
I have a collection of about 30 wrestling manuals and histories. I'd guess that Jason Couch probably has far more than that.
Some of the better ones are "The Magnificent Scufflers" which focuses on collar & Elbow not CACC, but does contain CACC history.
Graeme Kent's "Pictorial History Of Wrestling: , be carefull, there are other books by the same title that are trash.
I just purchased a copy Of "Fall Guys" which should be arriving any day now. Really looking forward to that one.
Then you have numerous old manuals and instructionals and even biographies by or about Gotch, Hackenschmidt, Leonard and many others. It just takes some time and effort to hunt them down.
Search some of the names you mentioned on the internet and you'll find some nice info also.
Sorry if my post is full of mistakes or typeos, I haven't had hardly any sleep.
Thanx once again Scuffler
Top, by request.
Now, see if it works.
Another quality thread guys
I'd sure like to see those pictures.
Sorry.
Here's a few of them:
Deglane with the toe-hold that you can catch while working a farside cradle:
http://www.lutte-wrestling.com/torsionpiedsR.JPG
Londos working the double-top:
http://www.lutte-wrestling.com/pro2213.jpg
Londos with a neck crank using ten finger grip:
http://www.lutte-wrestling.com/pro2217.jpg
The Stecher body scissors!
http://www.lutte-wrestling.com/pro2224.jpg
Nat Pendleton with an armbar:
http://www.ifrance.com/lutte-wrestling/pendleton_14318.jpg
Thanks, very cool pics.
lol at the name "Joe Stretcher," that's gotta be a stage name.
Thanks Owen.
I'd like to find the Ray Steele heel-hook, but haven't relocated where he put it.
It was Stecher :)
No problem Owen,
I really can't say that I've seen anything I'd call high percentage. I've worked on grabbing a stopper (figure 4 toe-hold) from there.
I do believe that my buddy Jason Coomer has a couple of slick tranistions he uses from inside cradle. I'll ask him and post any suggestions that he has.
Just reading some of the great, old threads………
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