Have you definitely isolated your conditioning issue as a cardiovascular problem? I don't know what your resting heartrate looks like, but it's possible that you would benefit from working on your muscular endurance.
Leigh - Sounds like you're on the right track. Have you been monitoring your RHR? Has it changed?
Leigh,
i havent been monitoring it religiously daily but every few days i would check it.
Initially it was in the early 50's and today it was 46bpm when i woke up first thing. So i believe that i have made progress. When one considers that i was overtraining (hense the ctreation and great advice on the other thread) a few days off and intensified training days has seemed to help my heart rate figures drop over a sort period of time. What type of figure should i be aiming for? Im sure that i read Joel mention that he believed 40 was too low and the happy medium was somewhere in mid 40's (dont take this as being 100% as its just the way i remember it)
It is my humble opinion, your method is a very intelligent way of training as im raring to go on days that i am training at the minute. I love to train and i am the type of person that would be there in a heart beat if someone needed a partner. But i know and understand the benifit of rest and i have to bare that in mind on a daily basis. Plus it does my home life no harm being around more often.
I cant truely say that i have seen the full benifits in training just yet as im integrating striking into my schedule at the minute and it difficult to keep your heart rate low on an activity which im not fully comfortable with yet. But i have a hard day palnned tomorrow and will report back with the effects.
GeorgeM - Have you definitely isolated your conditioning issue as a cardiovascular problem? I don't know what your resting heartrate looks like, but it's possible that you would benefit from working on your muscular endurance.
George thanks for the post,
I absolutely detest running and avoided it for years. I would rather have done sprints on a mountain (and have done) rather than put time in running for distance and aerobic benifit. I have done tons of gpp workouts which involved body weight, i have done tons of 'strength endurance workouts' using various methods and whilst i feel that there is some benifits i always got back to the smae principals that one must train their sport hard and everything else is supplemental to that. So if my class training is sh1t, no amount of gpp (for eg) was going to address that.
I was an avid weight trainer and i come back to my roots and began shifting some iron again. I felt better and stronger but i knew that i had to run. So after recieving advice from Leigh i have adjusted my whole training routine and have added running for distance which coupled with hard regular wrestling i hope will have covered my muscular enduarance needs.Its in its infancy but i feel good and i am glad for my rest days.
I do feel that there is a place for muscular endurance by means of curcuits but personally i think that this should be done in prep for a specific date/fight/comp. But i would be open to listening to opinions/advice on the matter.
Hope this provides some additional insight.
Leigh - Great to hear it's working for you. Yeah Joel says somewhere around 50, although mine is 40-ish (down from 60) with no loss in strength and power <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
Thanks i really appreciate the pointers you have given me.
Its early days yet and hopefully in a month or so i will know exactly where im at strength and condition wise. A few weeks of training and sparring will tell the tale, i hope.
Not to sound like a paid advertiser for Joel, but I really think you would benefit from getting his book. It really changed the way I looked at s&c training for sports. There are better ways to train for muscular endurance than just doing random circuits.
If your resting heart rate is in the 40s, you most likely have a well-developed cardiovascular system, and your heart is providing your muscles with plenty of oxygen. The weak link may be your muscles ability to utilize this oxygen. Increasing your muscular endurance is accomplished by training for hypertrophy of the slow twitch muscle fibers, as well as increasing the aerobic abilities of the fast twitch fibers.
There are a few different methods of doing so, and Joel has an article on 8weeksout.com, as well as a free muscular endurance program on his forum that would be a good place to get more info.
I definitely think that more technical sport training in areas of weakness can help tremendously, as you'll learn to more efficiently use energy in places where you might presently be inefficient. I probably wouldn't replace any technical sessions with s&c sessions, but if it turns out you have a glaring weakness when it comes to muscular endurance, your MMA training might benefit from finding a way to incorporate a couple sessions a week working this attribute.
GeorgeM - Not to sound like a paid advertiser for Joel, but I really think you would benefit from getting his book. It really changed the way I looked at s&c training for sports. There are better ways to train for muscular endurance than just doing random circuits.
If your resting heart rate is in the 40s, you most likely have a well-developed cardiovascular system, and your heart is providing your muscles with plenty of oxygen. The weak link may be your muscles ability to utilize this oxygen. Increasing your muscular endurance is accomplished by training for hypertrophy of the slow twitch muscle fibers, as well as increasing the aerobic abilities of the fast twitch fibers.
There are a few different methods of doing so, and Joel has an article on 8weeksout.com, as well as a free muscular endurance program on his forum that would be a good place to get more info.
I definitely think that more technical sport training in areas of weakness can help tremendously, as you'll learn to more efficiently use energy in places where you might presently be inefficient. I probably wouldn't replace any technical sessions with s&c sessions, but if it turns out you have a glaring weakness when it comes to muscular endurance, your MMA training might benefit from finding a way to incorporate a couple sessions a week working this attribute.
George i appreciate the informed post.
Just to clear a few things up - i am in the process of getting joels book at present so i cant wait to have a read.
I am in the process of totally overhauling my training days and the extended running time, lifting and evening training has my hands full at the minute and is pretty demanding as you would imagine. So i want to settle into this training routine then train hard during sessions and see what benifit are being made in regards to performance.
I am very aware of gpp workouts entail and have in the past followed a solid gpp workouts. Ones that where designed for pre comp and general phyical enhancement. They consisted or exersizes designed to mimic the bodily requirements whilst in combat ie burpee's, jumping jacks etc. The other type was wrestling based with 30 seconds work and 30 seconds rest which was done for volume rather than rounds. They both had their benifits but during this period of time my strength decreased as i was only training one time per week on exersizes that i felt didnt maximise my strength.
I am a advocate of moving big weight to get strong and have seen this tried and tested many tiome over the years through an iron will and determination. I digress from my point..
These muscular endurance workouts did work for in the realms of feeling better and being able to train for longer at an elevated level but without the strength that i previously had which was a big thing for me personally. So hense i dropped muscular endurance and classes i attend where made half sparring which previously was not the case and my endurance needs where being met in other ways.
But as i posted before im here to learn and any advice will be taken on board.
i forgot to say, i competed recently and felt the fittest i have ever felt and the differnace was the addition of hard running pre comp.
Running is my achilles heel - i definately know that.
When I was doing Judo tourneys, I seemed to be at my best when I did olympic lifts 3 days a week. I didn't go to failure but it kept my power and speed up.
I dropped the powerlifts and any other lift besides clean, snatch, squat, overhead press/push-press. The other lifts seemed to burn me out.
Telamon - When I was doing Judo tourneys, I seemed to be at my best when I did olympic lifts 3 days a week. I didn't go to failure but it kept my power and speed up.
I dropped the powerlifts and any other lift besides clean, snatch, squat, overhead press/push-press. The other lifts seemed to burn me out.
This is very similar to my friends routine. He was an international judoka and he used a similar routine and abandoned all weight lifting a few weeks before competition.
He had great results but was coached in olympic lifting since he was very young. But his routine didnt suit me personally as i didnt train with him often enough to master the lifting techniques.
Leigh
"Doug, why do you say, "outside of maintenance"? what would he be maintaining?"
I think strength can be improved, even for an ideal body composition for a non-elite fighter via general acclimations (IE. GPP). Although this is likely to be maintained adequately during skill work as a fighter becomes elite, i think there is some value to a very basic strength maintenance routine in a gym and little cost. I think of it similar to taking a good multi vitamin. Yes your food should be adequate in nutrition, but a good multi won't hurt. Think of GPP maintenance in the gym as an insurance policy for your fitness.
"if i understand you right, you are saying that if you are lean and at the top of your weight class, you are only going to increase effective strength by practicing your sport. is that a correct?"
Correct. I don't think a power lifter will be stronger in a fight than an identically sized fighter with elite level skill in fighting. In fact, if the power lifter isn't also elite in fighting, i believe he will be the weaker of the two. Similarly, if the roles were reversed, the power lifter would be much stronger in a lifting meet.
"If you wrestle only, you will get stronger but only to a limit. You will need progressive resistance to increase your strength further"
wrestle bigger guys?
This has turned into a very informative thread.
My input - when i was weight training diligently and first started rolling i was that strong guy who weight trained and gave everyone some hastle due to weight and heightend strength levels.
I then found the best club i could, trained hard and cut down weight training to a point where i eventaully stopped to concentrate on technique. my strength went down quite significantly. Upon realising this, I started a new program - one day strength, another spp, next gpp and then a hard day of sparring (off course whilst doing aerobic/anaerobic work a day a week also. I thought that i had all the bases covered and i must say i had more ability 'to keep going' when training. I got tired but not to that point where i wanted to stop and die. But i still was significantly weaker than before.
I then decided to re-jig the training after rolling with a guy who weighed 72kg and could deadlift 220kg. Now boy this taught me a lesson. His posture was great, he was like steel although his skill set was limited i couldnt budge him and he was super hard to sub.
Another guy who was so strong, in fact super strong..i seen him pause at the bottom of squatting 5 plates aside to exchange a few words with a guy looking on then complete his set. Now this guy is an anomly but he trained his grappling hard, went running, did his sprints and weight trained as normal and kicked ass in every competition he entered. Infact he beasted many guys, when he got a limb he tried to tear it off.
I have since come back to weight training and learned valuable lessons from these guys. I need to weight train and get as functionally strong as possible. Although i understand that this is merely one piece of the puzzle.
Plus weight training is one of those activities where you cant argue with the numbers.
As mentioned before. Its about the law of diminishing returns
Most people can get their deadlift to 2x BW in a relatively short period of time. But to get it to 3x BW would require a massive amount of training. Wich means less skill training. I dont think its possible for anyone to reach huge numbers while maintaining conditioning and skill (outside of 1% freaks)
I wasnt just thinking about straight up wrestling someone either. You can do situation drills wich might not translate to MMA but would still be tough workouts
For example reverse lifting a 100kg opponent from par-terre or doing heavy deads. Wich one is more likely to produce strength on the mat?
Just throwing things out for discussion ;=)
"Ok had a think and I disagree (unfortunately). If you wrestle only, you will get stronger but only to a limit."
True, it's difficult to acclimate your strength in a sport where progressive resistance is impractical, but that's not an argument against technical acclimations being the only effective means to improve strength. It's an argument for it being difficult. Bear in mind that just because it isn't easy to gain mat strength doesn't make it true that weight training beyond gpp will provide any important results to your strength.
"You will need progressive resistance to increase your strength further. If you had increasingly stronger, heavier and more powerful training partners, then I think you would build great strength"
This isn't entirely true. You need progressive intensity. Increasing the size of your training partners is only one way to do this, and possibly not the best because your technique could be different against larger opponents (same story with wearing a weight vest).
"Anecdotally, my gf started strength training and although she hardly put on any weight, she found her physical tasks at work much easier, as do many manual workers who strength train"
Typical occupations do not have weight classes nor are employees typically at any appreciable level of GPP. Make no mistake: my position is only that elite athletes at the top of their weight class can only improve strength via technical acclimations. I'm not saying anything beyond that.
"Additionally, we have all rolled with a guy who has done no jiujitsu yet is VERY strong - vice like grip and can bench you off mount. They gas very quickly and you tap them in a round but you cannot deny their strength"
Please refer to my prior post for my position on this. If this novice athlete were against an identically sized elite athlete the elite athlete would be stronger (by definition of terms this must be true).
Keep in mind I don't disagree that some people will be stronger than others. This could be for more reasons than I could list. However, if any individual wishes to get stronger once elite and at the top of his or her weight class, only technical acclimations will achieve this to any significant degree.
"Shame cos I like the idea of not blistering my hands with a heavy deadlift and having the energy and CNS function to train more MMA"
You may have other reasons to weight train beyond strength. Maintaining your body size is one good reason, which will subsequently maintain hypertrophy derived strength that you already have. However, your time for developing technically derived strength is better spent somewhere other than the weight room.
I see some other posts I haven't read just yet, but I'll check em out later.
^Good post Doug
It makes alot of sense.
Wieght training for me is enjoyable and something that i can do in 40 mins twice a week. So its not a task that takes up loads of my time and energy wise im not as sore or deflated as i used to be after a hard weights session.
For my training - there will always be a place for lifting weights for one reason or another, even if it is only a day a week.
I have one final example of how weight training has helped a friend of mine recently - He has a nice nogi game and was fairly strong at a weight of 76kg. He began weight training in conjunction with some running and rolling about 6 months ago. This guy has made significant gains in numbers and in mat strength and is now subbing guys who he previously had problems with, much easier.He is no way elite level but his game has improved significantly by weight training as it suits his style.
Leigh,
"As a specific athlete, why would you do any GPP? surely it should all be sport specific"
You might be thinking of GPP as a "style" of working out, which seems to be the use of the term these days. When i say GPP, however, i use the original meaning which is something more like: The phase of training in which acclimations to exercise carry to all physical activities (I.E. acclimations are 'general' to any activity). For whatever reason, probably changes like to neurotransmitter levels, plasticity, and so on, this phase exists even for neurological acclimations (E.G. it accounts for what we call "beginner's gains).
Your GPP for strength in sport may be maintained or even achieved simply by doing the sport itself, but it may not. This is why i think it's wise to strength train in the weight room for maintenance. Low cost, potential benefit.
Leigh,
"if the sport itself may not maintain your strength and you need to supplement in the weight room, isn't that a contradiction to what you have been saying?"
The GPP work would help primarily to keep muscles balanced and strong if they aren't used particularly often or intensly in your sport for whatever reason. For example, my general upper body pulling strength might be low if i'm a boxer, but i would still benefit from developing and then maintaining that strength in the GPP in the weight room because the sport alone may not be enough. However, i suspect that GPP for strength done in the weight room is largely unecessary for most elite combat athletes. Like i said, its an insurance policy that can help round things out for you (keep in mind that the GPP will develop more than just strength), but for the most part i think your point is correct, although not invalidating.
Good posts by everyone by the way.