This is the third time that i have tried to post this, so you can imagine that i am getting annoyed with this p.c!
Ok..Do you ever reach a point when you have decided that you are strong enough for your particular weight category?
Over the lat while i have noticed that people are posting about strength in relation to body weight and it has gotten my wheels turning. Is ther a poin that we reach when we say that we are strong enough and instead of attempting to get that extra poundage and extra rep - we conserve some energy for an area of weakness. For example running and/or skill work.
I am 'relatively strong' for my weight and i have reached the so called boundaries for strength relative to weight. So do i keep pushing the stength levels until i plateau or do i go onto 'maintainace' as prescribed by leigh and concentrate my efforts else where?
I weight train x2 per week and only do the compound movements using the wendler routine for strength and to be honest i have gotten good results relatively quickly. Thanx to leigh for that advice. But now after a short period of time my strength levels have almost gotten back to when i was strongest, not quite but really not that far away.
So do i keep pushing or become more 'well rounded'?
I hope im making sense as im typing as i think..
Any relpies appreciated.
I have actually stopped weight training. I don't feel getting weaker in sport when I don't. And I have discovered that I am back to my old numbers in 2 weeks when I start again.
I don't want to add muscle and I want to maximize heavy skillwork regarding fighting. Add working & studying & somwhat keeping in touch with other people = just not enough time for effective strength training and recovery.
My strength numbers are not that high - I could probably do a over 850 lbs but sub-900 powerlifting meet at 160 lbs of BW.
I like Fedors way of doing it
I read an interview with Voronov where he said Fedor does heavy lifting when not training for a fight. And then drops it completely to do more grappling and bodyweight exercises
Im not a pro fighter so i dont train that much during the summer or christmas. So i simply do heavy lifting then, get my strength up
then when its time to prepare for grappling tourneys etc, i dont train weights at all outside the bodyweight conditioning we do and some supplemental pullups
I drop maybe 30% in strength when i get back to the weightroom but i dont feel noticable weaker when wrestling. I feel wrestling a lot keeps me strong enough. Especially when we do lots of drills like pickups and shit
Thanks for the insight guys.
I love lifting iron and have done for years - off and on..more on than off to be honest. I stopped at a stage to comncentrate on technique but i felt that i had definately lost something so to drop it all together i would never do again as i feel that it really benifits me and my style.
But this is personal to me only - i would consider what leigh prescribes as a period to maintain strength levels. This makes alot of sense to me.
I agree that there is nothing more specific than your sport to build functional strength, endurance, timing etc.
But the question still simmers in my head - should we cap strenth at a certain level or keep pushing the limits?
Law of diminishing returns, IMO.
If a person is at the ideal lean body mass for their weight, i think there is little point to intense strength development in the weight room.
Martyspike - Thanks for the insight guys.
But the question still simmers in my head - should we cap strenth at a certain level or keep pushing the limits?
I agree with the diminishing returns bit but a lot depends on how late you start serious strength training. I think a big problem with amateur and professional mma fighters is they start serious strength training quite late in their career and as a result they are playing catch up and don't have enough time to get as strong as they could get.
Whereas a decent college football player will probably have started serious strength training at 14-16 and by the time they graduate will have a decent squat etc. and can spend their college years gradually getting stronger. Bottom line is that it's a hell of a lot easier to build getting really strong around skills work etc. if you have 4 years + to do it rather then trying to do it in 1 or 2.
vermonter - If a person is at the ideal lean body mass for their weight, i think there is little point to intense strength development in the weight room.
Doug, would you care to elaborate on your trail of thought?
Think of me as a 'total Noob'! :)
Id be ineterested in hearing your thoughts.
banco -Martyspike - Thanks for the insight guys.
But the question still simmers in my head - should we cap strenth at a certain level or keep pushing the limits?
I agree with the diminishing returns bit but a lot depends on how late you start serious strength training. I think a big problem with amateur and professional mma fighters is they start serious strength training quite late in their career and as a result they are playing catch up and don't have enough time to get as strong as they could get.
Whereas a decent college football player will probably have started serious strength training at 14-16 and by the time they graduate will have a decent squat etc. and can spend their college years gradually getting stronger. Bottom line is that it's a hell of a lot easier to build getting really strong around skills work etc. if you have 4 years + to do it rather then trying to do it in 1 or 2.
To paint a clearer picture - i have been weight training for the past 10 years. I have had some great partners over the years and made the movement from sport across to becoming a 'gym rat'.
I learned alot and worked out how my body works and how to increase muscle and/or get lean. I am however always very interested in hearing other points of views - this how we learn.
I then made the transition back to sports and found that my added strength was an advantage and at the same time a disadvanatge and something had to give and a happy medium had to be made. I was lucky that i could get my strength levels back up to respectable figures but i believe is due to in large by the virtue that i have hit these figures and more previously when training, so mentally i had an advantage.
Now weights supplement my training and i use little by the ways of supplementation - protein and glutamine. I know that my strength will plateau at some point which may well be soon.
Marty,
There are neurological and hypertrophic components to strength development. With an ideal body composition there is no room for hypertrophy, and naurological acclimations are gained only through technical development (i.e. not physical development) beyond General Physical Preparation (GPP).
Any real disagreement on this topic comes from where GPP based improvements to the likelyhood of victory end (or, more appropriately, reach their point of diminishing returns), and the importance of Specific Physical Preparation (SPP), which i personally feel is useless as it's normally performed.
vermonter - If a person is at the ideal lean body mass for their weight, i think there is little point to intense strength development in the weight room.This doesnt make sense. Just because you are at your "ideal lean body mass" doesnt mean that you shouldnt try to get stronger. Strength can be acheived without inducing hypertrophy, and the amount of weight you gain and lose will generally be dependent on caloric surplus/decifiency.
I do however agree with the law of diminishing returns. If you have adequate strength and poor skill, you should absolutely focus on your weakness.
vermonter - Marty,
There are neurological and hypertrophic components to strength development. With an ideal body composition there is no room for hypertrophy, and naurological acclimations are gained only through technical development (i.e. not physical development) beyond General Physical Preparation (GPP).
Any real disagreement on this topic comes from where GPP based improvements to the likelyhood of victory end (or, more appropriately, reach their point of diminishing returns), and the importance of Specific Physical Preparation (SPP), which i personally feel is useless as it's normally performed.
Doug , to clarify even futher. I am awalys around 87kg even when eating far from ideally. Weight training has not increased my weight at all as i believe that the type of traing leigh has prescibed has produced alittle or no hypertrophy, which is to my liking.
So basically what you are saying is that 'with an ideal body there is no need for bigger muscles and mental acclimations are only gained through correcting lifting technique' or something along these lines? :)
Please correct me if im wrong.
I have done many GPP workouts and found them tough. I related times to the rounds specific to the type of combat sport that i have competed in. I havent use these in a while as i have poor recovery rate and have concentrated recently on lifting and running and that has me exausted ontop of training for mma recently.
Doug, i agrre..SPP isnt for me as i train pretty specifically as it is and get what i need from training imvho.
<blockquote>LiftStrong - <blockquote>vermonter - If a person is at the ideal lean body mass for their weight, i think there is little point to intense strength development in the weight room.</blockquote>This doesnt make sense. Just because you are at your "ideal lean body mass" doesnt mean that you shouldnt try to get stronger. Strength can be acheived without inducing hypertrophy, and the amount of weight you gain and lose will generally be dependent on caloric surplus/decifiency. <br /><br />I do however agree with the law of diminishing returns. If you have adequate strength and poor skill, you should absolutely focus on your weakness. <br /> </blockquote><br /><br />
Liftstrong,
the calorific surplus/deficency is quoted for the truth. I have skill weakness' like everyone else esp in the standup range but im learning as much as i can. I have a great wrestling coach and never turn down a session with him and practice my ground as much as i can but this is probabally one of me 'better areas'.
Liftstrong,
I didn't say that that you shouldn't try to get stronger, but that a focus on weight room strength is not the way to do it.
I think my follow up post will help to clarify that point.
Marty,
Let me look at your post by point:
"'with an ideal body there is no need for bigger muscles"
Not quite. Combat sports are weight classed. At any given weight if i have a high enough lean body mass (IE a low fat mass) then i am at the limit for strength acclimations through hypertrophy that i could achieve. If i am not at this "ideal" body composition, then i do not fit into the category. There is a lean body mass limit in combat sports because there is a point where any further hypertrophy would put me at too high a bodyweight for my class and I cannot reduce fat mass further while maintaining health and performance. Because of this any strength development will have to come from neurological acclimations.
"and mental acclimations are only gained through correcting lifting technique"
I would call the acclimations neurological rather than mental (these acclimations are largly sub-conscious and many do not even occur in the brain). Neurological acclimations are attained through technical practice at an appropriate intensity. Weight room training is not a technique in any combat sport, and so technical acclimations to strength cannot be developed adiquately in the weight room beyond GPP (by definition).
If hypertrophy is not an option, and technical strength acclimations aren't accrued significantly beyond GPP in the weight room, there must be no need outside of maintenance to spend time in the weight room.
Doug,
I have given consideration to competing at a weight class off 77kg. Now inorder to make this managable i personally would like to attain a walking around weight of early 80's. I am currently 87kg which is as far as i would like to go above this weight class as 10kg is quite abit to lose/cut and i feel would have minimal impact on performance if handled correctly. i believe that through diet and added cardio, this goal weight of 77kg could be attainable. Of course the secret to anything to do with weight loss is diet.
So id personally have to work on reducing my body fat which i would say at a guess is around 14/15% at the minute because my diet is far from restricted at present.
Hypertroupy isnt an option at this stage but elevated strength levels are desired by yours truely. Now as i said these levels are respectable at present. So i feel that i wouldnt have to reduce muscle size, just reduce fat levels at present (but im open to correction here) which would allow continued weight training so long as my weight doesnt elevate (which i know that it wont as that is diet dependant imho).
Any advice appreciated :)
Gokudamus stole my name - I like Fedors way of doing it
I read an interview with Voronov where he said Fedor does heavy lifting when not training for a fight. And then drops it completely to do more grappling and bodyweight exercises
Im not a pro fighter so i dont train that much during the summer or christmas. So i simply do heavy lifting then, get my strength up
then when its time to prepare for grappling tourneys etc, i dont train weights at all outside the bodyweight conditioning we do and some supplemental pullups
I drop maybe 30% in strength when i get back to the weightroom but i dont feel noticable weaker when wrestling. I feel wrestling a lot keeps me strong enough. Especially when we do lots of drills like pickups and shit
If you look in recent interviews Fedor says he completely abandoned weight lifting something like 4 years ago.
Yeah i have read that. And in my opinion Fedor back in Pride was more powerful and explosive
Leigh,
That makes alot of sense.
Basically if your attributes are good in a certain area (for example strength) then keep working it but with less emphasis on ''i must concentrate really hard on getting stronger''. Now please dont get me wrong here i am by no means saying 'im a monster in the weight room' but there is a disparity between that and my conditioning.
The best way to describe it is at my own level i am at my very best in the first 5 mins and every round after performance decreases.
My achilles heel has been conditioning which i am addressing with the advice that you have provided me. I have stuck to my 3 days a week running and my times have been reduced whilst staying within the 130-150 range. Which is progress, and more to the point - progress which i can see in black and white and with no guess work involved.
I think the solution maybe to keep training my weights hard, if figures increase - so well and good. If they get capped here, they are 'respectable' figures anyway. But my personality is such that i always want to do better.
But my focus will shift to getting quality runs in without fail and work on getting that heart rate down and distance travelled increased. Hopefully this will provide the balance that i need. One never kbnows, if strength and cond ballance its self out then maybe focus will shift again. Who knows!
Any thoughts?
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice on this thread, it has been appreciated.
Gokudamus stole my name - Yeah i have read that. And in my opinion Fedor back in Pride was more powerful and explosive
I agree totally.