i've done a modified uchi mata from the knees. seems to work sometimes.
Again however, maybe it's just me, but when I go to my knees to prevent a pass or to escape side control, it's closer to turtling facing my opponent than kneeling like we're just starting sparring.I normally just pull guard at the moment or allow my opponent to pull guard. What is the use in taking him down and starting from side control? I just removed a whole area of practice! If I want to work my side control I find a newbie or I just ask! What's the point of taking him down standing with a takedown that bypasses the guard? Because passing the guard is hard! You can use takedowns from the knees in real matches, not just in training. You can do them when you go to your knees from the bottom as an escape, or when you do it aggressively from the bottom of guard, especially butterfly or half. In a competition, you can't just ask the other guy to let you have side control. There are many opportunities to do it in a real match, when you go to your knees from the bottom as an escape, or when you do it aggressively from the bottom of guard, especially butterfly or half. The same moves work, it doesn't matter if you start close or far away. And by the way around half the moves on the tape are showing how to pull him into a sweep from the guard or how to pull him to guard when you're turtled under him. So it's not like if you do the moves on the tape, you will never use your guard.
"What is the use in taking him down and starting from side control? I just removed a whole area of practice!"
Andrew, when I say that I'm talking strictly in training. Of course it's good to bypass the guard in a competition but which is more important to train for competion. Passing the guard or takedowns from the knees?
All I am saying is that kneeling in front of each other and going for takedowns bares little resembalance to any situation in competition and wastes valuable training time in class. If you want to train takedowns then train them from standing. If 2 people end up kneeling in front of each other in a comp, chances are they're gonna just stand up.
If we're talking about whether or not it's good to do takedowns from the knees when starting the training session then I agree, it's not very useful and better just to go straight to a ground position, or start from standing.
If we're talking about whether or not it's worth it to get this tape and learn the moves, then I say, yes it is, because you can use the moves on this tape during a match that starts from standing, not just starting facing each other kneeling.
At this point in time, I think that starting from knees is a good idea to do *sometimes* in sparring for beginners. The other times you would begin in various bad positions, like under the mount, f.ex. Beginning from the knees is relatively safe and gives the students some idea about standing clinch work, at least it does in no-gi, IMHO.
jonpall.
Get off your knees!
If you want to just start on the ground, start in a position: inside someone guard, using guard, side mounted or whatever.The only reason people want to learn takedowns from the knees is so that they can do better in rolling in class... All it does is give you bad habits.If you want to start even, start standing.There are a lot of setups and takedowns that work from the knees as well as standing, ie. armdrags, snapdowns, underhooks, etc. For those who haven't wrestled much, it can be a way for them to work these setups without the higher impact of takedown training.
Should you always start from the knees? Definitely not, positional training and takedowns have to been trained extensively for a well-rounded game. Is starting from the knees useless? I would say no, for the reasons mentioned by Andrew and some others, as well as those I've listed.
Jeff
Fights don't start on your knees.
Tourneys don't start on your knees.
So why start on your knees? It'd be handy if you found yourself fighting in crawlspaces all the time, or wrestling midgets or something.
But otherwise, it's a stupid way of training.
Takedowns are safe if you are trained in them. Simple as that.
Yes there is some crossover with takedowns from the knees but Kai and Loki are correct, your training time can be better used for something else.
LEARNING and DRILLING moves from your knees is not the same as occasionally starting sparring from your knees. I don't think people should be taught moves from your knees. However, like I said, I think that starting from your knees every now and then, for beginners, helps beginners to get to know the clinch feels and start to give them ideas. Like flopping to the guard, for example. j/k :)
I apologize for the long post, I am bored at work and I keep adding to it as more thoughts occur.
First of all, I think many people get in the habit of "flopping to guard" when they start from the knees - which is a bad habit if you are training BJJ for self-defense or especially MMA. Fighting for top position is a good instinct to have. If you HAVE to pull guard or half-guard, go right into a sweep or submission attempt. At least this way you're ingraining the habit of constantly attacking.
Another thing I hate to see is two people gripping each other's collar and arm from the knees, straining back and forth until one of them topples the other over with brute strength. If you're going to fight for top position, have a strategy in place. This being said...
"Takedowns are safe if you are trained in them. Simple as that."
Well...yes and no. I see what you are saying, and I am a huge advocate of training wrestling and takedowns. But that's just it, most people are NOT trained in them. I think training takedowns has to be worked up to for a lot of people who are just beginning in BJJ. Many people who come to my gym are slight of frame and meek of nature when they first start. If they are not used to wrestling, rolling around on the floor can be intimidating. Being violently thrown or slammed to the floor is usually even more so for them.
I had an ex-wrestler who came to the gym for the first time last week. He had never done BJJ before in his life, and really enjoyed the class. At the end, he wanted to roll, but start standing. So we went at it and it was great. We went hard, had fun, no injuries. I wish everyone who joined up was like that! He is big, strong and athletic, and is going to progress very rapidly. But unfortunately, he's the exception to the rule. He has a big advantage over most of the people who walk in the door because of his background and his comfort level with contact and takedowns. If that was how the average guy or gal started out, they probably wouldn't come back for a second class.
Also, a lot of beginners who are strong tend to spaz out a bit when they are first learning BJJ. No matter how much they are told to relax, they just don't know how yet. When you stand them on their feet to train takedowns, they do the same thing. That combined with a crowded mat can lead to injuries.
You may say that all this even furthers the point that you should be starting from certain positions, not from the knees. And I agree with you to an extent. Positional training should make up a large part of your training time. But as I said earlier, there are wrestling setups (drags, snaps, shucks, underhooks, etc.) that can be used from the knees to get your opponent's back, off-balance him, etc. These translate directly to stand-up wrestling, and are less intimidating to work for beginners because they don't have as far to fall when they go over.
For example, when I teach the sprawl, I do it starting from the knees. I have one partner sink in a head inside single from the knees (a position that occurs often in actual wrestling). The other partner learns how to sprawl his hips down with proper pressure in the right direction. He learns to push the head down out of posture, to work an overhook if necessary to square up, etc. All these things are easier to focus on and learn for beginners in this scenario because they're not afraid of falling. If they are unsuccessful, they're simply rolled onto their back, not dragged down from their feet.
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Now let's say the two guys who just finished the above drill start from the knees for a round of sparring. One guy posts on the other's shoulder. The second guy shucks the arm aside and dives under for a single. The first guy works his sprawl, and they continue on from there. Would it have been better for them to start from the feet? Undoubtedly. But they got to work virtually the same techniques (shuck, single, sprawl) as they would have from the feet, and they didn't have the fear of falling. As they begin to learn breakfalls and get a little more "seasoned" on the mat, banging heads while standing up will be no big thing. It's the next step in the progression.
Once you have reached a certain level and especially if you are preparing to compete, I think that most of your time rolling should include working takdedowns. But even at high-level seminars, for example, you don't see people start standing very often when they roll at the end. Blacks belts start from the knees along with everyone else. They do it because of space limitations and injury prevention.
So while I agree that takedowns are a huge part of the BJJ/grappling game, and need to be stressed more in many gyms - I think starting from the knees does have its place in the progression.
Best,
Jeff
I think starting from the knees is fine, it's not that which I have a problem with. I have a problem with people going for takedowns from their knees for the same reason I have a problem with people trying subs from inside someone's guard. It is avoiding an important part of their training, guard passing. There is a blue belt in my school who STILL goes for chokes from in my guard and hardly ever tries any other strategy to pass. He's obviously had some success with it in the past and as such his guard passing has suffered.
The same WILL happen if someone gets good at takedowns from their knees (mainly at an early stage, I wouldn't argue that learning them when you're a blackbelt is gonna hold you back), they'll keep taking people down to side control and they'll never learn to pass guard successfully.
IMO, the 3 things that should be avoided early on in BJJ are subs from your opponents guard, leglocks and takedowns/jockeying for position from the knees. If I ever have my own school I believe I will start most sparring sessions by telling people to start from a specific position. Free Sparring would wait until the end and wouldn't be a mandatory part of the class.
Then again, I'm only a blue belt and Roy is a black belt so maybe he has a handle on it that I don't.
Both fighters on their knees never happens.
If someone is on their knees, you get back to your feet and finish the takedown. Simple as that. Now, I know what you are saying: "What about out of a sprawl".
Well, then fucking start in the sprawl position.
Generally, if someone is stuck under someone in a sprawl and can't get back to their feet to finish, or turn the corner, they almost ALWAYS get turned over where I train at. Even the most meek and slight of frame knows how to either take the back, or work the over-under and/or three quarter nelson to get them on their back.
JRockwell: I'm on lunch right now so I'll address yours point for point when I return.
Chalupa: Okay, then tell me when you see two fighters both on their knees and not trying to get standing.
A split second doesn't matter and you know that.
Training from the knees is all but useless, you might as well be standing in a Horse Stance.
Jr Wrote in Regards to Takedowns being safe:
Well...yes and no. I see what you are saying, and I am a huge advocate of training wrestling and takedowns. But that's just it, most people are NOT trained in them. I think training takedowns has to be worked up to for a lot of people who are just beginning in BJJ.Well a good example of how this is wrong is that we have millions of kids and teens walking into wrestling programs and around the world and never having to be taught explicity how to fall. They don't start on their knees to start with or any of that said nonsense. But, the numbers of injuries are always low. Now, why is this?Because they train intelligently.
Many people who come to my gym are slight of frame and meek of nature when they first start. If they are not used to wrestling, rolling around on the floor can be intimidating. Being violently thrown or slammed to the floor is usually even more so for them.And we've had many the same types come roll with us, but you have to just expose them to being taken down as much as possible. We've had your general meek and small types all the time at our club and they're out there doing 'Man in the Middle' just to takedowns like the rest of us and they do just fine and the number of injuries has been few and very far between.
I had an ex-wrestler who came to the gym for the first time last week. He had never done BJJ before in his life, and really enjoyed the class. At the end, he wanted to roll, but start standing. So we went at it and it was great. We went hard, had fun, no injuries. I wish everyone who joined up was like that! He is big, strong and athletic, and is going to progress very rapidly. But unfortunately, he's the exception to the rule. He has a big advantage over most of the people who walk in the door because of his background and his comfort level with contact and takedowns. If that was how the average guy or gal started out, they probably wouldn't come back for a second class.Well, that's just intelligent training. When those new people do standup with us, we make sure they are relatively comfortable, let them tie up and move around with us and even the more advanced people don't try to bury them. It's much the same with ground work, you just don't slap on a fast armbar on a newbie, Heel hook then lightning quick, or choke the fuck out of them as soon as it hits the ground. You take it somewhat easy on them, talking them through things, telling them what they are doing wrong and so on.I think the real problem people have with starting on their feet is that 1) They are uncomfortable there because they have a signicant lack of attacks and techniques there 2) People start on their feet so infrequently that they get injured just of unfamilarity. 3) Ego Issues.Now, the only time I can see rolling from the knees is if you're in a very crowded room, and are working something specific, but that is within the realm of drilling, therefore the whole idea of trying to get better with takedowns on your knees is completely moot.Honestly, in situations where the floor is crowded, I've found it better to just roll 2-4 groups of man in the middle with a timer. That way everyone gets to roll, roll hard and start on their feet... I've seen better progress with that than with rolling on the knees.Also, I'm not against starting from the knees if someone's training injured, especially with leg, or shoulder injuries.But otherwise, starting on your knees is simply absurd.
Kai, your vehement stance against training from the knees is making me think long and hard about this one. While I think the points I made are valid ones, I'm going to keep mulling it over, perhaps there's a better way. For now, though, we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;)
Best,
Jeff
Jeff: I'm Vehement because I've seen far too many good ground artists get the piss beat out of them just because they can't get it to the ground on their terms.
Or I've rolled with people who've beat me just starting on our knees because they can directly bail to guard without a fear. But if I roll with them including standup takedowns, all of the sudden I'm tapping them out without much trouble because I they land in half guard, or worse... Or get their back taken when trying a horrible Wallid Ismael-like takedown... Not to mention getting rattled by a throw and usually side mounted when trying to work the infamous BJJ body lock.
It just leads to so many bad habits, starting on one's knees, it's not worth the bad habits it gives you. Most importantly is that when you're working off your knees, you never have to learn the very important skill of level changing or even standing balance!
Anyways, here's a good experiment to work to show why people don't stay on their knees.
1) Start with you and your opponent on your knees.
2) Tie up and start to work.
3) Then have your opponent pop up off of their knees to stand, while still tied up and then try to work the takedown.
Now, there are certain counterattacks against that strategy (Tomoe Nage and certain sweeps), but they aren't exactly high percentage and they all involve one thing: Going to your back.
Many of the times the person who's on their knees will have to bail to their back to avoid getting picked up and passed.
So, as far as both starting on your knees, trying to find grips and then score a takedown, all while staying on your knees (more or less) is training that has no basis in reality. The idea of regarding of needing to get better for doing takedowns on your knees is simply something a person wants to learn to help their 'Dojo' ego, since it's not applicable in any other situation.
Chalupa: That's nearly inapplicable, in your example, you know where you should be going is up to your feet to finish taking top position, not struggling on your knees. Besides, this has little resemblance to the starting position many BJJ schools use.
When you are on your knees like that, you have little leverage and little mobility, so in order to effectively finish from that position, you get to your feet, it's as simple as that and you mostly do it to keep your opponent from beating you to it!
My two cents
starting from the knees is stupid.
one person should sit to guard or both should stand up, playing from your knees is both unrealistic and a flat out waste of time.