"but I think damage and attempt to finish the fight should be the #1 priority, like Pride does it. If that were the case, BJ Penn would be fighting Hughes for the title next."
Baroni vs Minowa Part 2.
A takedown that you do nothing with should be the same as a sub attempt that is quickly shrugged off or a blocked punch- in other words, it should mean little in terms of point scoring, one of the least factors in deciding a fight.
"They show domination, but they don't really do damage, unless you're matt hughes or somebody."
They don't really do damage because they're fighting on a padded floor. I like takedowns being scored because it maintains some degree of realism - in a fight on a sidewalk, every double-leg Rashad finished on Hoger would have been bouncing his head off the pavement.
The real problem is the vagueness of scoring. How do you weigh a takedown vs a sub attempt? If a judge knows nothing about subs, will he/she care about sub attempts? If a judge knows nothing about takedowns, will he/she care about the risk, timing, speed/strength involved in shooting a double?
Takedowns should only NOT be counted as scoring moves when the person being taken down accepts it and pulls or jumps to guard rather than defend it.
If they defend but still lose the position then the takedown was an effective offensive manuever. What they do after the takedown is inconsequential and should be unrelated to the takedown itself. They should be getting recognition for 'controlling' the fight (ie - taking it to the ground). If they don't advance, rather than shaft them out of a scoring move...realize that they lose the position anyway and are back to square one.
3 Phases
Striking
Takedowns
Groundfighting
All three get equal weight and they are all equally imprortant.
Rashaad was not being offensive all night. The only offensive thing was his eye and GnP was offensive to the sport. You can point fingers at Sams non agressive groundwork, but hell he wasn't taking any damage, and Rashaad didn't make an attempt to pass guard to catch him in a sub. Atleast sam went for a sub. It's a lose lose situation. If Rashad actually passes guard, he may
A. Get in a better position instead of the boring ground and pound
B. Get subbed.
It just makes the fight more exciting.
Best thread eva!
didnt GSP win w/ takedowms......? hmmmmmm......
You are dictating where the fight goes. Just so.
If takedowns shouldn't count for points, then why should almost submissions matter?
IMO: Takedowns should count for something, but in the UFC in the past I feel they counted for too much, often giving a round to a fighter who suffered from more damage otherwise.
Something to think about:
If a successful takedown should score points for octagon control (taking the fight where you want it), then shouldnt a defended takedown count as much (Keeping a fight where you want it)? Or what about escaping from the bottom back to your feet?
A successful takedown is an offensive tech that worked.
A sub 'attempt' is an offensive tech that did not.
swishlol
"Pride has the most inexplicable and inconsistent application of its judging criteria ever."
judging by the last UFN i would say the UFC is almost catching up
Takedowns should count for points for sure. I think they count for a little too much right now, but regardless of where you land or what you do with it, scoring any takedown at all is difficult and should be rewarded.
I don't think 5 ineffective takedowns in a round should negate getting your ass kicked everywhere inbetween the takedowns though. Somewhere in the middle.
Hoger tied up and waited on the ground, even if Rashad had big plans to pass the guard, Hoger's plan on the ground would've made it somewhere between difficult and impossible.
What about the guys that jump to and/or pull guard. In those cases the top fighter ended up on top at the will of the bottom man. These are not takedown, but the bottom man dictated where the fight went if the top man lands in his guard.
My case is simple: If you take a man down, you are imposing your will upon him. That should count.
For all those non-takedown skilled folks, you are wrong. If all else is equal in a fight, the guy who got the takedowns should win.
Takedowns should score points, but within the context of any situation.
If a fighter just goes for a takedown because he is being aggressive it should be scored as a point.
If a fighter goes for the shoot because he just took a 3 punch combo that rocked his World, it should also score a point.
But, the fighter landing the 3 punch combo should get 2 or 3 points for effective striking that would nullify the point for the takedown.
A fighter who slams his opponent Matt Hughes style should be scored 2 or 3 points.
All takedowns should be scored.
The funny thing is im betting that many of you against TDs counted for points probably think sweeps from the guard should.
Same shit, different pile. They show grappling control and offence.
Mounting someone, taking someone's back, having your opponent constantly running away from you, etc doesnt do "damange" either. Heck, even most sub attempts, dont do it either.
This forum really needs to get over this "damage" thing as if thats the only thing that matters in fights. MMA is not a pure striking sport, yo.
People also need to realize that in a fight like GSP/BJ, its not so much that tds are weighed in so much but if one fighter has a td and the other fighter hasnt done shit before or after he gets taken down, then, yes, the tds will be considered in the decision.
Its not the ulitmate factor but they still count and they should be considered and weighed accoringly along with everything else that happens in a fight.
Everthing should count, you just got to know how to count it (like mayiwhoopu has demonstrated).
But you guys actually already know this.
"I dont think they should count failed sub attempts, but boohoo thems the rules."
Every thing should count. Of course, a token sub attempt that is thwarted in its earliest stage (ie. never even gets off the ground) vs. one that has the apply'y fending for his life is a differnt story but educated MMA fans should know this too and know how to weigh all things in its appropriate consideration.
Of course, its still subjective and sometimes close fights need really small detail examination which is again subjective but to think tds and failed sub attempts dont count is dumb.
Everything counts, you just have to know how to count it.