On a SideNote -OUTCOLD -Wasa-B - While im not a Thai or KB expert, I don't think ive seen those in them. Were they an MMA invention? Benson is often cited as one of the first guys to do it? If they aren't done in KB, why? Why do they only kick to the thigh and not the calf?They are super easy to block and again highlight the basic nature of MMA kicking/striking techniques.
Here we go.
Always that damn MMA haters on a MMA forum.
Wasa B ,
yes sir ,you can make a good claim that front kicks are definitely underused in mma. Imo ,the problem with front kicks isnt that they are ineffective but instead that proper placement and execution makes them much more technical kick to be able to really use effectively
most anyone that tries front kicks in a mma fight, that really didn’t spend years training them ,(like from a traditional background),look sort of awkward throwing them. Machida and Anderson Silva come to mind when thinking of beautiful and effective executed front kicks
most mma guys with no traditional background learn the round kicks and master those first but front kicks (imo) require much more extensive work ,inorder to really make them work
here’s another thing to ponder about with front kicks,blasting hard front kicks (with the ball of your feet ) can damage toes and limit your mobility for the rest of a fight. It’s one of the reasons why Thai boxers don’t slam front kicks at each other hard ,with the balls of their feet and instead opt to use teeps
The Irony in all this is Chandler was the first well known victim.
Newaza freak -Wasa B ,
yes sir ,you can make a good claim that front kicks are definitely underused in mma. Imo ,the problem with front kicks isnt that they are ineffective but instead that proper placement and execution makes them much more technical kick to be able to really use effectively
most anyone that tries front kicks in a mma fight, that really didn’t spend years training them ,(like from a traditional background),look sort of awkward throwing them. Machida and Anderson Silva come to mind when thinking of beautiful and effective executed front kicks
most mma guys with no traditional background learn the round kicks and master those first but front kicks (imo) require much more extensive work ,inorder to really make them work
here’s another thing to ponder about with front kicks,blasting hard front kicks (with the ball of your feet ) can damage toes and limit your mobility for the rest of a fight. It’s one of the reasons why Thai boxers don’t slam front kicks at each other hard ,with the balls of their feet and instead opt to use teeps
What about the Kikuno crescent kick? Guess same goes for the balls of the foot but I reckon most would be unprepared for those just as they were against Kikuno. Funny that Kikuno never tried them in the UFC iirc?
Sprawl'n'Stall -On a SideNote -OUTCOLD -Wasa-B - While im not a Thai or KB expert, I don't think ive seen those in them. Were they an MMA invention? Benson is often cited as one of the first guys to do it? If they aren't done in KB, why? Why do they only kick to the thigh and not the calf?They are super easy to block and again highlight the basic nature of MMA kicking/striking techniques.
Here we go.
Always that damn MMA haters on a MMA forum.
Any decent MMA fighter should be able to compete in BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing and Muay Thai at a decent amateur level.
In the year 2021 we still have elite level fighters who could hardly compete in Ammy competition.
Frankly it’s embarrassing that “Mixed Martial Artists” still have such massive holes in their game.
Wasa B,
Is this what you are talking about ?
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/4/5/1387681/bloody-elbow-judo-chop-katsunori
seems like a round kick with the ball of the foot ,which use to be the way most karatê guys threw that kick in the 60s &70s before everyone starting using the instep for almost all round kicks. Most if not all karate texts books (from the old days ),show round kicks being done with the ball of foot
I don’t know if the author of the article is calling it a crescent kick because he heard it somewhere or if he labeled this kick himself. A crescent kick (imo ) is a totally different kick than the one kikune is doing in this article. The kick that I’m seeing him doing looks like a round kick with no hip turn ,while making contact with the ball of his foot.
After such a high profile event I'm sure a lot more guys will be working on defense and checking them. This will ultimately lead to it not being as effective but of course still utilized when applicable.
Kirik -Sanda, I think.
AnotherTMAguy -It was used in Muay Thai a long while ago but it was relatively easy to block so it's not used as much.
This. It's not used much as you're not landing a kick so basic very much unless they're handing it to you on a plate.
Add in most kicks in Thai especially are checked/returned immediately, things like calf kicks aren't going to work out for you when a higher points kick is coming back at you. The opponents ability to return kicks immediately through stance differences is going to shut out a calf kick.
Many have stated this is down to the stance differences and how heavy footed stances need to be with factors like grappling thrown in. Also most mma fighters are not that proficient blocking kicks at all, and the kicking game is low in general compared to pure striking - so those things will get throthrough.
So basically - dictate what percentages get played with shot selection. Mma stances, often vulnerable to leg kick demolision. Traditional striking stance, vulnerable to being taken down repeatedly. Mma is a cruel sport!
I have been knocked out, had nose smashed, had various bones broken, ect.
The most miserable thing that ever happened to me, was the first time I ate a very solid hard leg kick to my thigh, from a very good kicker (He went on to fight and do well in Glory). Had no clue what the hell had happened. Looks great on tv but that shit hurts. lol
OUTCOLD -Sprawl'n'Stall -On a SideNote -OUTCOLD -Wasa-B - While im not a Thai or KB expert, I don't think ive seen those in them. Were they an MMA invention? Benson is often cited as one of the first guys to do it? If they aren't done in KB, why? Why do they only kick to the thigh and not the calf?They are super easy to block and again highlight the basic nature of MMA kicking/striking techniques.
Here we go.
Always that damn MMA haters on a MMA forum.
Any decent MMA fighter should be able to compete in BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing and Muay Thai at a decent amateur level.
In the year 2021 we still have elite level fighters who could hardly compete in Ammy competition.
Frankly it’s embarrassing that “Mixed Martial Artists” still have such massive holes in their game.
If they were fighting in MT, they’d have a different stance.
As ELuke said, the issue is stances. If you have a “check friendly” stance, you are getting taken down at will (unless you are super lanky).
Newaza freak -The distance in mma is much farther than muaythai and as stated before ,fighters are more squared up in Muaythai ,which make calf kicks harder to land
In mma (unlike other combat sports ) kicks can be easily grabbed ,inorder to take you to the ground and win close rounds.
calf kicks have not only become popular (In mma ) because of its damage & effectiveness but also because they are harder to grabb inorder to convert to takedowns
midrange kicks to the body ,high kicks and even thigh kicks can be easily grabbed
calf kicks ,not so much
To expand on this, a good MMA defense to leg kicks wasn’t even raising the shin to check, but just turning the leg to face the kick and taking it on the front of the thigh. You wouldn’t even need to really reach for the leg, a hard kick could bounce up the slope of your thigh right up to your hip where it was an easy grab.
The mechanics for doing this were also the beginning of of opening your stance to throw big right hand (also a counter to a lazy leg kick) so you were getting 2 for the price of one in MMA.
Hitting at calf level is just so much safer in MMA, and they have to lose some the speed checking of the Thai stance to use/defend other parts of the game. I’m really impressed with this revolution.
They weren’t a thing in my era, what are the best sweet spots?
ChinoV - Here is a great little tutorial and write up on the kick. MMA stands usually has the lead leg turned in word slightly, and my time is more squared up, so it’s harder to land in Mai Tai. So they do not throw the cake as often in my time. But here’s a great clip.I do not know how to embed,someone help. Thanks in advance.
I looked at the clip, but they appear to be using it very differently than it’s modern use in MMA. In your vid, they appear to be baiting the guy into raising his shin for a conventional leg defense check, then catching an angle while the guy is immobile standing on one leg and kicking the calf of the raised leg (which would probably spin him and give you an even more dominant angle).
This is a beautiful technique but has little to do with how the calf kick is being used to dominate in MMA now.
Here is a good one by Wonderboy on it’s modern MMA applications.
First O'Malley now McGregor are calf kicks the Kryptonite for these snipers?
I’m no expert but I was getting taught calf kicks at Thai back in the 90s so they certainly ain’t new.
The really good guys would mix them up with a foot sweep to catch you out like Machida used too.
Newaza freak -Wasa B,
Is this what you are talking about ?
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/4/5/1387681/bloody-elbow-judo-chop-katsunori
seems like a round kick with the ball of the foot ,which use to be the way most karatê guys threw that kick in the 60s &70s before everyone starting using the instep for almost all round kicks. Most if not all karate texts books (from the old days ),show round kicks being done with the ball of foot
I don’t know if the author of the article is calling it a crescent kick because he heard it somewhere or if he labeled this kick himself. A crescent kick (imo ) is a totally different kick than the one kikune is doing in this article. The kick that I’m seeing him doing looks like a round kick with no hip turn ,while making contact with the ball of his foot.
NF, that’s the one. I realize there is another kick referred to the crescent kick as well (was it the axe or question mark?), anyhow I asked a Kyokushin guy about this (where Kikuno came from) and he knew it by that name as well. Anyhow, it’s kinda like a 45 degree angle kick to the body with the balls or halfway bet a front kick and a roundhouse. Jack Slack has also written about it and how Kikuno used just that to give Alvarez a good fight. I haven’t seen anyone else use it.