"In sum, the careers of both Dan and Saku can both be picked apart by mischaracterizing and/or emphasizing only certain negative aspects. Doesn't mean people were crazy to consider them P4P at one time. When looking at their careers, it is the TOTALITY that gives them greatness."
I'm not really sure what you mean. When Dan was considered a p4p contender, he had won a tournament full of heavyweights including some of the best in the world; he won the title at 205 by dominating Wanderlei. These days I don't think many people consider him in p4p contention. At the time people were talking about Sak as p4p, he was considered the best fighter in the sport and had an insane record. At the time people were/are talking about BJ as p4p best, he was still unable to win more than three fights in a row, failed twice to win a title in his weight class, failed to beat the one significant heavier opponent he had a win over in the rematch, etc.
The only time it would ever have made sense to call BJ a p4p great was after the Hughes win. His subsequent failures at 170 and the fact that his only truly significant 155 win since 2003 is Sherk make discussing him as a p4p contender these days -- or any time in the past couple years -- silly, just like it would be nonsensical to talk about Sak as p4p great anytime in the last several years.
As for looking at his career as a whole, basically then all you have is a good lightweight who has one big win outside his weight class, and that guy stopped him in the rematch.
Orcus,
I actually don't really know what I was trying to say there :) I think I was trying to flesh out the differences between BJ, Dan, and Saku, but your post actually was a lot better in accomplishing that.
Also, I agree that the pinnacle of BJ's P4P run was when he beat Hughes. And you're absolutely right -- his run ended with back to back losses to GSP and Hughes.
However, I will say this: BJ's run ended by losses to the #1 and #2 guys at a heavier weight. Dan was in the P4P running when he beat Wanderlei at 205 -- similar to BJ beating Hughes at 170. But Dan ended up losing at his own weight to Anderson Silva, and had a controversial decision with Franklin.
In contrast, BJ has yet to lose since his return to LW. Looking at the LW picture in the UFC today, I would say a dominant win over Pulver and Stevenson was still pretty significant.
In looking at their careers as a whole, Dan and Saku both have more losses against fighters at their weight than BJ has at this point in time. I guess my question is why glorify Dan and Saku's career and trivialize BJ's?
I understand that it irks you when people still think BJ is in the running for P4P. I can understand why due to his losses at 170. But even pretending that he never moved up to 170, I would still say that his career at 155 is better than good.
Many of the guys he beat at LW were, at the time of the fight, top 5 155'ers (Din Thomas, Uno, Sherk, Stevenson, Gomi). And I think it was the WAY he beat them. Similar to the way GSP has dominated the top contenders in his division. BJ's loss to Pulver can be compared to GSP's loss to Hughes. Both guys were blasting their way through and ran into the #1 guy in their respective divisions.
Let me ask you a hypothetical. Say GSP challenged Anderson Silva and beat him in the first round. And then he had a split decision loss to Rampage. And then he lost a rematch to Anderson, and then got beat by Dan Henderson. Then he moves down to WW again, and beats Franklin, who has since move down to WW and has been dominant. He challenges Anderson one more time, and is stopped.
Would GSP's contention for P4P be similarly tenuous?
I know there is no measuring stick for P4P, but the way I've been look at it, a loss at a higher weight doesn't give you many negative points, but a win does. The rest of the points are earned by dominating your own weight class.
A LW with one big win outside his weight class should earn quite a few points in my opinion. At least enough to put him in the running with GSP (not ahead of!)
nate787 - (BTW, my post wasn't "Ad Hominem". That was pointing out the pot calling the kettle black. Just so you know.)Well we can digress on this for hours and lose the real debate, but "pat yourself on the back after every post and pretend you're smarter than you are." qualifies as an Ad Hominem attack. Not an insult mind you...but an AHA regardless. I suggest we get back on topic.
Anyone disrespecting BJ Penn is unhinged.
No one is disrespecting him. From what I can recall no one hear has said he sucks.
Having said that, 99% of the people on this thread are definitely unhinged...myself included.
Well, I guess one of us is wrong. Either I'm stupid or you guy's exhibit all the qualities of religious followers.
Ausgepicht - Well, I guess one of us is wrong. Either I'm stupid or you guy's exhibit all the qualities of religious followers.
I admit that I'm a BJ Penn cult follower. Guys like BJ and Sakuraba captured my imagination as an early fan of the sport, and I will always root for them. That said, I don't think that discredits any of my arguments. But I guess it does explain why I'll spend a big chunk of time posting on this thread :)
only fucking douchebags think BJ Penn is overrated because of the examinations they did on a fucking record.
records dont mean shit use your fucking eyes to see how good he is.
ajl416az - only fucking douchebags think BJ Penn is overrated because of the examinations they did on a fucking record.lol...
records dont mean shit use your fucking eyes to see how good he is.
Do me a favor and answer this litmus test. I am curious how you will answer it, and how reluctant you will be.
Is GSP a better fighter than Penn?
hes done some great things, but all the pre fight talk he was unable to back up will stick with him for awhile
Ausgepicht -ajl416az - only fucking douchebags think BJ Penn is overrated because of the examinations they did on a fucking record.lol...
records dont mean shit use your fucking eyes to see how good he is.
Do me a favor and answer this litmus test. I am curious how you will answer it, and how reluctant you will be.
Is GSP a better fighter than Penn?
yeah, what else can you say after a whooping like that. i thought BJ would win
when skill is equal or close, the winners always gonna be the bigger stronger man, its why we have weight classes. Georges performance should have put an exclamation point on that, nobody's ever whooped BJ like that ever.
" I guess my question is why glorify Dan and Saku's career and trivialize BJ's?"
I don't think anyone glorifies Dan's or Sak's career that much these days. The problem with BJ is that the vast majority of his fans still think he is the best fighter in the world or at least in the top 3, and beating Sherk is just not enough to support that. The other thing is that even in retrospect BJ's runs weren't incredible. He had a total of three (admittedly impressive) fights before fighting for the title and losing to Jens. Then he won a couple (neither impressive) and drew with Uno. Is there really anything amazing there? Then he beat Gomi who was coming off a loss. Then the Hughes win, which was obviously the absolute peak.
"the way I've been look at it, a loss at a higher weight doesn't give you many negative points, but a win does. The rest of the points are earned by dominating your own weight class."
A loss at a higher weight doesn't give you negative points, but it certainly might diminish a previous win at a higher weight, particularly if the win was over the same guy you subsequently lose to. As for dominating the weight class, that's exactly what I think Penn has NOT done at any time in his career. He beats a couple guys every few years. There are a ton of great fighters at LW today and Sherk is the only one he's fought, maybe Uno.
Anyway, I give you props for remaining level-headed in this discussion, which puts you way above the majority of Penn's fans here :)
"when skill is equal or close, the winners always gonna be the bigger stronger man, its why we have weight classes."
It sounds like you're saying GSP is not a better fighter, he's just bigger, and so pretty much avoiding a straight answer to Ausgepicht's question.
At what aspect of MMA is BJ better than GSP?
Jiu Jitsu and striking of course
GSP fans are mostly gay. BJ fans aren't fans because of looks only like gay GSP fans, since BJ is as ugly as a cabbage patch doll. All these GSP fans have this sick manlove for him.
toshii - Jiu Jitsu and striking of course
FAIL.
Were you smarter with your last troll account, or is this what we should expect regularly from you?
Randy held the 205 title and heavyweight. So you fail on that
LateStart -caliphornia - BJ may be disrespectful when he hypes fights, but his following is not disrespectful.
if you want to talk about disrespectful fans, then point the finger at GSP fans. the way they have treated BJ fans recently shows the pathetic side of the MMA community. you can disrespect BJ but don't disrespect his fans.
LOL so its ok for BJ nuthuggers to be as annoying as fuck but when GSP wins we can't give a little back? I know your only sad because BJ lost so I will forgive you.
I don't think BJ nuthuggers are annoying. No one is denying BJ lost that fight. It's the GSP nuthuggers who are annoying by disrespecting him and gloating over the win (like they where the ones who beat BJ) for the past two weeks straight.
Caliphornia has a point by saying BJ has never talked shit about the fans.