Would a person holding his opponent in his guard be pinned under catch rules? His shoulders would be touching the mat, but not because his opponent was forcing them down. A BJJ player could adapt by rocking side to side so that only one shoulder touched at a time, couldn't he? Then he'd still be able to use his guard, he just wouldn't be able to lie flat on his back. He'd have to work! He could also turn to his side and call his "guard" a cross body scissor. Which is way worse for the top guy anyhow.
Yes, in fact my friend Shane Tucker did just that after he had gotten very tired during a catch rules tourny in Tn. back in the early 90's which I mentioned on another thread. If stacked there is still a chance of being pinned.
if you put your hands on the guys shoulders he is pinned. which is why a wrestler wouldn't want to be on his back. you could use it as a scissor or something if done right.
In the tourny that Shane was in there was a 3 second pin rule and no points so he was never in any danger doing this.
Not saying that I would suggest it. In fact going in we discussed this at some length as I remember and decided that we wanted him to stay away from this unless forced into it by just such circumstances as occurred.
point well taken.
I think a real good guard player would be able to handle someone trying to pin down their shoulders from this position. Putting your arms up that high to pin the shoulders is putting yourself in danger for sure against a great guard player.
What if they stack their weight on a real good guard player.The guard is not a dominate position in catch wrestling!So....If your back is on the mat you lose !
good points on all sides.
Coming from someone who has competed in Folkstyle Wrestling for about 15 years under a set of rules that included a 2-second pin (only one second less than that which is required in Catch), and who has done some BJJ and submission grappling, I would consider someone trying to "play guard" (unless we're talking butterfly guard) in Catch as committing suicide. I don't think that many people realize just how short a period of time 3 seconds is. It is quite easy to hold someone on their shoulders for just 3 seconds while inside their guard.
I think that one we have catch rules tournaments going again, you guys will see what I mean.
"What if they stack their weight on a real good guard player.The guard is not a dominate position in catch wrestling!So....If your back is on the mat you lose !"
Try that against a good guard player and you'll get sweeped...easily.
Golden Arm, I highly doubt that he will be swept within 3 seconds of placing his opponent's shoulders to the mat. Three seconds is a very brief amount of time.
I think that some of those answering on this thread have not competed in BOTH Folkstyle Wrestling and BJJ/Sub Grappling, but have only done one or the other. If a person wrestled in high school, they would know how easy it is to stack someone up from that position and hold them for 2 seconds. If competing in Catch, they would only have to do so for a second more. From someone who have practiced both disciplines, I can tell you that unless he uses a butterfly guard from the outset (not going from closed guard or half guard to butterfly guard), he will easily be pinned before he can pull of the sweep.
"I think that some of those answering on this thread have not competed in BOTH Folkstyle Wrestling and BJJ/Sub Grappling, but have only done one or the other. If a person wrestled in high school, they would know how easy it is to stack someone up from that position and hold them for 2 seconds."
I competed in high school wrestling (80's) and have competed in many sub grappling and BJJ tournaments (just for reference with my opinion). However, I never saw a match in high school wrestling end up in this position (one man in guard so to speak). That doesn't mean it never happens just that I never saw this happen. I also have competed in BJJ and Sub grappling and any time I've seen a guy put his hands on the other man's shoulders or even put his hands that high on the bottom man it always resulted in a submission, an almost submission or a turnover. Although 2-3 seconds is a short time so I'm sure it is quite possible if drilled enough. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and I have never trained for the pin from this position so I could be way off. ;)
A good wrestler is going to get the pin.I've seen plenty of people with a good guard who could not sweep a good wrestler.It's happened more than often.
Bill, I am not trying to sound disrespectful or to dismiss your opinion, but having wrestled in high school and college, I have seen people pinned from that position alot, particularly because I was fond of putting them there.
I would do so by shooting a high crotch, come up to my feet after securing the leg, and getting into "Barsagar" position, except that my head would be underneath his left arm (if I shot in on his left leg). From there, I would reap his leg that was on the mat (i.e. his right one) with my left leg. The position we would end up in would be one that would totally resemble having a person in your guard in BJJ. From there, I would either tripod up and place my hands on his shoulders to pin him, or would hold him there without tripoding up to get my back points, and then tripod up.
As I've said before, once we get catch rules matches going, I'm sure that everyone will see what I mean.
But don't get me wrong. I am not doubting the utility of the guard, nor the sweeps from that position, in BJJ, Sub Grappling, MMA, or the street, just in competitions under Catch rules.
FightStudent , I understand and no disrespect was taken. This is a real nice converstaion on a legitimate point. I think you're right though, we'll need to see what happens in real CACC rules tournies to get a feel for it. :)
wasn't being between a man's legs and driving your hips into him and pinning himcalled a "saturday night ride" in amateur circles?
Drew, I was actually taught that pinning someone by grapevining both of their legs with your own (i.e. "Mounting" them, to use current BJJ/MMA terminology), overhooking both of their arms, then locking your own arms together, and then arching up, looking towards the ceiling, was the "Saturday Night Ride".
But then again, in wrestling circles, terminology varies GREATLY from region to region, coach to coach, and time period to time period. You may be right.
Guys ,I've done both also !If both athletes are equal whoever is on top will more than likely win.
A couple of points:
On my very first post I mentioned that getting stacked could well get you pinned.
If you'll read my posts you'll see that I have seen it done in a catch rules tourny without the guard player ever being in danger.
We have the match on film somewhere among the dusty old files of the past. The oponent was a very good collegiate wrestler from Carson Newman College.
You guys missed an important point; is a man pinned just because he's on his back, or does it only count if his opponent PUT him there? Anyone who's been in a good BJJ players guard knows that you're not exactly in control in that position and almost no hooks work from there. Does there have to be an element of control for it to be a pin? Personally, I don't have too much trouble passing the guard without a gi annyway. Which brings me to important point number two: what is your favorite way of dealing with the old "Whorehouse Hold" (just teasing BJJ guys, please don't start flamimg me)