poodollar is extremely correct.
Andre: Two Stripe Blue after 2 months of Training, Andre.
None of the strikers knew how to sprawl, and I'd've loved to see him fight against modern fighters, not up and comers and freakshows. But I think we'd all know what would happen: He'd be proved to be mortal like the rest of the Gracies and win some and lose some... Like Ralph, Renzo and Royler. He'd be far from a world beater and far from the top of his weight class.
Now, let me ask you something, do you think that Royce is significantly better than Ralph, Renzo and Royler (Barring Royler's fight against Saku who was WAY out of his weight class) in MMA?
PooDollar: Less Rules? There was no ground and Pound allowed, for one along with a slew of other rules. It also wasn't a grappling match because Royce threw a kick or two in the first one if I remember correctly. The first one was more akin to a Rings Match.
When the rest of the gracies fight in Pride, they seem to do fine under the rules everyone else fights under.
Asking for different rules than what the rest of the organization uses = special rules.
those were rules that yoshida asked for during the first fight kai! it was supposed to be in honor of the kimura vs. helio contest. stop trying to spin the truth!
The Ali fight against Inoki was a rule neutered sham.
"Andre: Two Stripe Blue after 2 months of Training, Andre.
None of the strikers knew how to sprawl, and I'd've loved to see him fight against modern fighters, not up and comers and freakshows. But I think we'd all know what would happen: He'd be proved to be mortal like the rest of the Gracies and win some and lose some... Like Ralph, Renzo and Royler. He'd be far from a world beater and far from the top of his weight class.
Now, let me ask you something, do you think that Royce is significantly better than Ralph, Renzo and Royler (Barring Royler's fight against Saku who was WAY out of his weight class) in MMA?"
First of all, this is no longer 1997 and I dont know anyone who thinks of the Gracies as immortal.
Second, you are forgetting that the modern fighters are standing on the backs of guys like Royce. Royce and all the original fighters in the UFC were the test subjects that showed the world what worked in an MMA match and what didnt. Modern fighters have the benefit of knowing which submissions to watch out for, what kind of striking works, the importance of MMA specific strength and conditioning training, and a general ring approach (use of the cage or ropes, for example) that the early fighters didnt have.
But when all things were equal, and everyone came to the table with the skills their respective arts gave them, Royce and his family's jiujitsu was overwhelmingly superior. Hate to sound like a jockrider, but it wasnt even close. The closest Royce came to losing was against Kimo, and yet he won convincingly.
I think that for a no limit, gloveless fight, Royce is better than Royler, Ralph, and Renzo. He is built for that type of fighting. He is a cardio machine with an excellent guard and long legs. He has a cool mind that doesnt allow him to get into too much trouble in a fight, and he is always a moment away from possibly submitting his opponent. I think that Ralph and Renzo are better under today's rules.
Royler, to me, is more of a sport grappler. Perhaps the best in the world, but I dont think he has the natural qualities for MMA.
I want to point out that I do BJJ, I do not Box, do Karate, Judo, etc. I wrestled for 5 years as a kid, but that was it. My buddies and I trained on the side in the 80's with wrestling with submissions. My point is that there were tons of people in the US that were aware of grappling and submissions way before Royce and the UFC's. The only thing he opened my eyes about was a neat martial art that I was not aware of, not grappling.
"I'd've loved to see him fight against modern fighters, not up and comers and freakshows."
that's what i'm saying. yes, poo, yoshida has shown that he can be an effective fighter with a base style of judo and nothing else. but even up to this point he would still have to be classified as an up-and-comer with his limited experience. and you know what? i give him a lot of respect for stepping into the ring with silva with such inexperience and holding his own.
the reason he requires these special rules is because he's outweighed in every match. if he were to fight in his own weight division, he'd have to fight with the same rules as everybody else.
Andre: In all due respect, if you believe that people still don't think BJJ/GJJ fighters as being superhuman, you're fooling yourself.
I never thought Kimo could have beaten Royce. He gave Royce a hard time, but never had him in trouble. Kimo may have hit him with a half dozen shots from Royce's Guard at most.
I still insist that modern fighters are not just standing on the Backs of Royce, but Severn/Coleman and Frye/Smith/Ruas as well. Despite what we saw in UFC 1-4, there were others out there who knew submissions as good as the Gracies did, they just weren't in those early UFCs. But they were mostly in Russia and in Japan but not Prowresu. But honestly, they were few and far between so that's neither here nor there.
Still, as many others have said, all things were not equal. Royce and his family were doing these matches for decades and trained for these matches for decades, so it was far from being equal. Not that people have had a chance to tailor their skills for these matches, Royce and other Fossils like Pure Wrestlers and Pure Strikers are little threat.
Now, before you say 'But everyone does BJJ now', sure that maybe partially true, but there are plenty of fighters who never train BJJ who have amazing submission grappling skills. Again, mostly in Russia and Japan.
Also, as far as the gloveless, timelimit less fight, that is also a fossil as well and Royce was beaten at his own game by Sakuraba. A lot of those no time limit matches would be decided now by whoever needs to take a shit first.
Now, I do agree with you that Royler is more of a Sport BJJ fighter and I really wish he'd stop doing MMA matches. His fight with Gomi was terrifying and against Murahama was embarrassing.
You know I try to stay professional and not pay attention to all the shit talking on this forum. but maybe its too close to the fight and I am a bit tiered from being up late, but
I would love to see any of the motherfuckers on this forum that are talking all this shit get in a ring for 20 min with someone that is 484lb while being 179lb and duke it out. I would also love to see any of your credentials and see what they fuck have you done to sit here and talk shit. Because you know how to do an armbar, now you are a fucking expert.
Get off the couch and fight then come here and talk shit.
Mike
Tricky75: That's exactly what I want. I would have loved to see Royce fighting back in the days of Militich in the 170 division, or in Japan in shooto or something, but not against these all but irrelevant freakshow matches.
There is nothing embarassing about going out there and fighting, and losing. How many times have you done it?
With all due respect to you, as well, you speculate a lot. There were other guys that knew submission as well, they just werent fighting anywhere. O.k., so how do you know that? You speculate.
Royce and his family trained for a no rules fight that allowed bare knuckles, head butts, elbows, kicking a downed opponent, stomping, and groin shots...hmmm what were the rest of the martial arts training for?
That is the point, Kai. They were training specifically for a fight without rules for decades, and that is why they were and are so good. No one else was doing so.
Thanks for your help in articulating my point, I was kinda stuck for words.
Kwik: And I agree with you for the most part, but it's also like counting baseball records before African-Americans were allowed to play. You ask 'Was this person really the best?' and that's what I'm asking.
Or was a such and such football team that great in the days before the 16 game sched, or before the superbowl.
It's something that Fans Debate.
John Glenn was a great astronaut and all, and Alan Shepard was okay for his time; but for my money, Neil Armstrong was BY FAR the best astronaut of the 1960s. I mean, the guy had it all! Spacesuit, EVA -- he freaking WALKED ON THE MOON! I didn't see no John Glenn walking on no freaking MOON, buddy! No, clearly John Glenn and Alan Shepard were just simply not half the astronauts that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were. No comparison whatsoever.
apparently you can't voice an opinion on here without 1) being branded a hater, 2) having your fight credentials questioned, 3) being called a wuss for "not stepping into the ring."
kwik, it is awesome when your opponent in a debate makes your point for you, isnt it?
Kwik: You're not quite getting it. They were all training in their Martial Arts but Royce was training for NHB/MMA, while these others were just training for their own art, whether it was Kickboxing, Point Karate or whatever. UFC was a NHB/MMA competition that Royce had the benefit of training years for.
Now do you get it?
Tricky75: No you can't, you can't disagree with someone without them resorting to insults, having your points avoided and generally yelled at.
tricky, anyone can voice an opinion on anything. I can go to a medical forum and claim that eating radishes will definitely keep people from losing their hair, but expect doctors and other professionals to call me on it. Credibility is important in a debate, no?
Kai, no, you arent getting it. The point was that their arts werent reflecting a no rules fight against another person. While no art can encompass every possible eventuality in a fight, BJJ stripped it down to the barest components and said, "ok, lets just keep fighting and see who wins." They did that for several decades and came up with an art that was head and shoulders above the rest for one on one combat with very, very few rules. I would argue that BJJers would have one those fights had there been no rules at all (barring weapons and multiple opponents), because they were certainly better prepared for every possibility than their opponents.
Translation of the astronaut comment for those who didn't quite understand it:
Criticizing a man who did amazing things in his time because he didn't do some of the even more amazing things that those who followed him and built on his success managed to accomplish is ridiculous.
so no one answered my question. would you or would you not rather see royce fighting a top fighter in his weight division than say, an akebono or yoshida under special rules? that was the original point before you guys ventured off to the 72 dolphins and astronauts.