simply, a great post. especially what you said about wrestlers being the majority of opponents out there, not WC men. just...absolutely right.
I also couldn't agree more about the wc guys. I have very rudimentary boxing skills, and most of my footwork is from savate. This poor fellow with over 4 years of experience tried to bong sau my jab! poor guy, he ate a lot of leather.
It's funny that you mention vu being revolutionary. In a recent mag article, he talks about going from entry, and taking down the opponent. True to Vu style, he keeps it simple...just tackle the guy! It actually reminded me of how Kano's students, when they came to the U.S., were taken to the ground by football players during a demo.
the only thing I disagree with is when you said that JKD should be leading the pack. This is my personal opinion on the matter: I only consider guys who train realistically (or, as you put it, in an "alive" manner) to be true JKD guys. That means:
1) Inosanto and his guys (namely paulson, balicki, nakamura, dog bros., and others that I might have missed)
2) Vu and his guys
3) Richardson and his guys
4) you and your guys
This particular "lineage" (man, I hate that term), to me, is what REAL JKD is about. And, in my opinion, this group ALREADY leads the pack.
I once heard a funny story about a jkd instructor who turned away a potential student when he found out he also did bjj. wtf?? guys like that, I don't consider to be jkd at all. In my opinion, I don't care if they call themselves jkd anything, to me, they're not part of that pack.
once again, great post.
Scott, I noticed the same things about Guro Dan's seminars (which I don't ever miss) and Erik Paulson's seminars. You do get quite a work out with Erik's, but he has some seriously good drills and skills! I love his information, but I have to admit that it's tough to do a 5 hour seminar with him as I get older (41 now)! His workshops can be more than a little tiring! After about 3 hours, I am really starting to drag!
Unfortunately, most people that are into the martial arts (general populace) are not really wanting to work as hard as you need to work in order to become effective at fighting. I have a handful of students who want to train that way, and we try to accomodate both approaches.
We do stick sparring, BJJ rolling, boxing sparring, and chi sao. All of them are fun and I think do a good job of training resistance, more alive.
4 Ranges, I would disagree w/ you on #1. I am sure some of these people do train realistically in the fashion of the SBG/NHB guys but a majority of the JKDC people I know don't. I come from this group.
I do believe 100% that the true lineage of JKD lies with Guro Inosanto. I also believe that you need to part of this lineage if you want to claim to teach JKD. This is to protect the public because of the cash generating power of the term JKD.
Does this mean that the lineage is at the cutting edge of martial arts-No. Does it mean that "JKD" is "the best". No. I do believe that there are people like the SBG guys who exemplify the JKD concept better than most.
I am probably making enemies on all sides of the coin here but I call it like I see it.
KWJ, I'd like to hear your $.02.
Hey Rory. Love makes the world go around. J.M.
that's a BAD cough you have there... :)
I understand what you're saying about #1. That's why I listed the names of those who I thought represented the best of the JKDC crew. Anyone who trains in their vein is part of that. I don't know EVERY individual who trains in JKDC...so I couldn't name the "live" guys vs. the "dead pattern" guys.
Man, Burt posts here, so does Matt. Where's Erik and Uncle Voo in all this? They should post here too, dangit!!
100% agreement Joe, that is why I added that weapons disclaimer at the top of the paragragh.
I just wanted to hit the clinch compared to out dated hand trapping this time. Edged and impact weapons is a whole different can of worms!
I understand matt.Cool. I did a tape series in (95) where I touched on basics and the clinch was one of them. Way back in 93/94 when I was training a lot with Rickson, Everyone was wanting finishing holds. But I always wanted to work the clinch to. I think it's because of my wrestling and judo background.
I don't think the clinch is the next wave. I think it's the tail end of a wave. Because by the time the masses do it, it's past tense. Like you said about Vu and BJJ. I was doing BJJ with VU in (89) . That's when the PFS guys were resisting it. I've been working on ground fighting with blades as you might have read in one of my threads. Not in Vogue now. But it's also the next step to the natural progression. J.M.
I remember that article by Tomaz.
Good Post Matt.
Tradition and ritual are hard to shed. Funny how we find these things in JKD!!
"Change is the Changeless State". About the only thing I remember of my last reading of the Tao of JKD about 12 years ago. Words to remember when we become too comfortable or attached to things.
Hi Matt you make some good points. I agree when you say.
" The opponents to be worried about these days are strong, conditioned, wrestlers who are going to ground and pound you into a bloody pulp. Or fast, athletic, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people, who are going to body lock, mount, and pound you into a bloody pulp. Also, many people in the USA have a wrestling background. From High School, or College. The odds of getting into a fight with a wrestler, Judoka, or even a BJJ'r are a million times higher then ever meeting that mythicaly dangerous wing chun man (after all, even if they where dangerous, how many of them are there?). Wrestlers are everywhere."
Also remember that boxer from the local YMCA, or that big football player who will just pick you up and dump you on that fire hydrant?
The percentage if seeing this in a street fight is also very high. So prioritizing is a must.
But let me say that in addition to this remember, so many people will use an edged weapon. Thousands of people from frighten U.S. citizens to immigrants all carry edged weapons. So I think it's Aliveness, Plus, Plus. Aliveness,Plus clinch, plus Edged weapons, J.M.
Early Kevin, I am headed to the Gym.
Nice post DeLaney, but believe me when I tell you we are not quick to write things off. Wing Chun trapping is not part of our curriculum because it doesn't work.
You can call the ability to occupy centerline a 'wing chun' principle. But it only seems to work when you are either a)straight punching, which I would call a 'boxing' principle. . .(this is a chicken and egg argument because I believe Wing Chun came from British Sailors who showed boxing in the port city's, then it got screwed up and became Wing Chun. But you can still believe the blind nun story if you want to ;)
or b) with a forearm and level change. . .this is learned correctly and taught in basic wrestling programs.
In regards this:
"Don't be so quick to count stuff out. Remeber when the ufc came out? striking, boxing, kickboxing in general was considered worthless next to grappling, now
most fights in mma are won by strikes "
DeLany, these are strikes thrown by wrestlers who can change levels, or BJJ'rs who, like Bustamante (he looked fantastic last fight!) are cross training in boxing. NOT wing chun people using wing chun, or wing chun trapping, and that's NOT a coincidence. Wing chun people attempting to use wing chun trapping in the environment of MMA would not survive past the first few seconds of the fight.
There was a Muay Thai documentary made along time ago, (if I can find it, or remember the name I will post it, but I am sure someone on here will, I know Chico has it), where a Wing Chun Team from Hong Kong traveled to Thailand to challange the Thai's in a tournement. As could easily be predicted, all of them where knocked out, and beaten terribly. . .despite their supposed ability to "occupy centerline" they where clinched, knee'd, kicked, punched, and generally ass wooped. The Chinese protested that the gloves did not alllow their "hand trapping, and biu jee tachniques!" . The Thai's kindly aggreed to allow them to come back to Thailand and compete without gloves. Again, same result, just a worse beating.
By the way, I am make no claims as far as saying anything new here. Alfonso Tomaz, a Full Instructor from the Kali Academy days, wrote a fantastic article for Inside Kung Fu about 12 Years ago that stated the same things. Nobody wanted to hear it then either, although he spoke the truth.
What you are seeing in the UFC right now DeLaney is the next era of stand up fighting. Simplified boxing, combined with rapid ability to change levels, sprawl and clinch. It's the next wave.
You are up something early today Matt. I am enjoying this thread quite a bit. I like reading the back and forth between you and Joe. Can you feel the love people, I know that I can :).
Rory "Cheeky" Singer
Cheeky, I am going to the Gym. . .but first I have to water my dogs, and walk the plants.
Joe, That's absolutley true from a 'fighters' perspective, but sadly not the typical JKDC Instructors perspective. Every single MMA fighter alive today knows you have to have a clinch game to survive. That is past tense. Very true!
What Couture and those guys are working on now invloves a whole new level of things. Same holds true for our people. What the SBG Instructors will be working on at this next Camp is a whole new direction, and level of clinching, and ground work. But most JKD schools don't even understand the basic pummel! One thing we will cover is all of our drills for countering the ground and pound tactics, ala Noguira style. He has perhaps the best game I have ever seen in MMA since Rickson. And you were smart to do that with Rickson, he has some sneaky and very cool clinch games. He was working underhooks before anyone besides wrestlers knew what they where.
By next wave, I was talking about the next thing JKD people will finally agree you must have.
As you stated so many people rejected BJJ. Now most at least admit you must have some type of BJJ delivery system. That.... 'ok, I admit this is a must' has not hit the JKD people regarding the clinch yet. Again, its past tense to MMA Gyms. But JKD is SO far behind, which is sad. JKD should be leading the pack!
As far as a stand up game being composed of simlified boxing, rapid level changes, and clinching. I do think that is the next wave of fighting. The MMA fighters who have that today are all winning, but it's only been in the last Year or so that this was developed. I am not talking about crosstraining here. I am talking about people who from the first day they learn boxing, also learn to change levels with it. To sprawl with it. Who learn a jab, and a forearm stop level change, at the same time. This has something we have only been doing within the last Year ourselves. In the past I taught boxing, with clinching, and BJJ. Now we teach a stand up game that is designed specificly for MMA, or street, both places where the ground is ALWAYS an option. It's a very different thing. But the results are dramatic, and fighters are actually being able to use their strikes now because they can stay on their feet. It is kind of a blending of boxing and wrestling into one Art, taught at the same time, and never seperatly. When combined with the boxing blast, and the clinch it is simple, powerfull, and easy to teach.
Rodney King's tape series will demo much of this as well.
Matt, your posts on ALIVENESS and especially this one should be required reading before starting at SBG.
I have been training with Greg for over a year and it has just started sinking in the last few months.
Why? Because I thought "Absorb what is useful..."
I was trying to "add on" clinch and double legs and "ALIVENESS" to my "base" of kenpo. I was in "accmulation of techniques and drills and principles mode". I kept trying to keep kenpo as my "delivery system". LOL! I've been trying to Lop sao Greg in sparring for a year LOL I'm stubborn that way! (shhh, don't tell him I may still do it, and I'll have the video tape)
But instead of adding it on, I have needed/need to completely rethink it.
The BASICS you listed above need to be my base, not just add-ons like another vine disarm, they are essentials, not fun options.
What about wing chun movements that are not used against static obstructions such dissolve motions from
WC such as bil sao, taun sao, etc? I've always found these more realistic, epecially with looping punches.
BTW Here's a good one Larry Hartsell showed:
Parry a jab, Pak Sao the rear hand and uppercut?
Interestingly, these are components from WC and JF that are taught without obstructions. Where did the notion that all WC style trappings happens against a "block" or a "reference" point?
Also, my understanding that while Yip man's clan used
compound trapping, many other WC clans did not. Any one
know the story on this?
what type of opponents have you used them against?
I think Matt brings up a good point that most of the guys you'll be fighting on the street will be wrestler-types or football types that will just grab or clinch with you. Have you tried using this strategy against opponents who just crash the line, and try to body slam you?
Chuteboxteam, the new J.K.D frontrunners and they don't even know it.