I only stopped wearing my blackbelt around my head in public after i met Matt. My girlfriend likes it better to and plans to thank him, she wont say how though.
Common if it wasn't for incessantly critiquing of others, SBG's would have to rely on their accomplishments alone to spread the marketing image they've worked so hard at. They've tapped the well dry on JKD and Grappling, so now it looks like they're now an authority on selfdefense and L.E.O's training.
Not that I disagree with anything philosophically posted by MT, but the "we have the way" or "my way is better" marketing, lightly polished with "people don't have to agree with us" leaves me a little tired...I wish SBG would simply show "this is our stuff" and "this is why we think it will work" and not seek to place themselves above others by making blanket criticism followed by advertising for seminars and tapes.
But it seems to work for some...
Ray White
"Common if it wasn't for incessantly critiquing of others, SBG's would have to rely on their accomplishments alone to spread the marketing image they've worked so hard at. They've tapped the well dry on JKD and Grappling, so now it looks like they're now an authority on selfdefense and L.E.O's training.
Not that I disagree with anything philosophically posted by MT, but the "we have the way" or "my way is better" marketing, lightly polished with "people don't have to agree with us" leaves me a little tired...I wish SBG would simply show "this is our stuff" and "this is why we think it will work" and not seek to place themselves above others by making blanket criticism followed by advertising for seminars and tapes.
But it seems to work for some...
Ray White "
Ray I'm gonna hit your last paragraph first, and then work my way back up. I don't think anyone assoc. with SBGI bears any ill will to any of the other people out there practicing whatever be it, gung foo killa CQB, or traditional this or that. Fact is nearly everyone on this forum regardless of thier assoc. with SBGI or not started in the same place. When I make fun of an art, or style, weither anyone realizes it or not I'm also poking fun at myself. We all know what it is like to be where these other people are, I cannot fault them, because I once was where they were. I had no idea about "other styles", "crosstraining", or aliveness. If I had'nt been lucky enough to have a local boxing gym in my hometown when I was young I might have stuck with the traditional martial arts. However, I'm pretty sure that that would'nt have been the case. Why? Because constant improvement is very important to me. I think that it would have become apparent somewhere along the line as long as I was honest with myself that, that path was not the one to take if I wanted to do so. Once again I cannot fault any of those people for being where they are now, I can only fault them if they stay that way forever.
Understand that marketing entails explaining to people why you have a better product. Personally I think most of the SBG guys do a great job at playing "diplomat" when asked instr. vs. instr. questions. Yet it can't always be so. If thinking that SBG has a great product is wrong, I'm guilty. There are also alot of other (non SBG) instructors out there that I would endorse. There are also some truly beautiful and kind people out there that practice fluff, they are not much worse people in the grand scheme of things. Being the "numbah one ass kicka" isn't exactly bragging rights in mixed company. I can think of far more people who changed the world for good without ever throwing on a pair of sparring gloves, than vice versa. This is not to say that our job isn't important, just that everyone regardless of thier occupation should keep aliitle perspective at heart.
As for the "we have the way" or "our way is better" marketing you speak of, here's the kicker, it's no ones. NO SBG member can say "our way". They are only saying "this way", and by that most of them will stand. Pat Militech has "this way", Team Quest has "this way", no one owns it. The big difference here is that some of those groups are not going to go out and teach that "way" to people who by and large have'nt heard it. Most MMA seminars cater to people already familiar with MMA. The SBG organization is promoting that way to people who have'nt heard it yet. That naturally makes people uncomfortable, scared or insulted.
(cont.)
"Common if it wasn't for incessantly critiquing of others, SBG's would have to rely on their accomplishments alone to spread the marketing image they've worked so hard at."
As for accomplishments in the ring you only have to look as far as Rory Singer or Forrest Griffin.
Personaly I can take a critique, I get em every day, and I get better as a result of them.
"They've tapped the well dry on JKD and Grappling, so now it looks like they're now an authority on selfdefense and L.E.O's training. "
Self Defense has been a part of SBG from day one. Many of the schools started in that direction. There are SBGI instructors who are law enforcement officers. Read the blurb for the Singers Gym on the SBGI page and you'll see the word Self Defense used prominently. Understand that the big difference between kung foo killa CQB and SBG, is intent and healthy attitude.
Also remember just how young the organization is. You don't start a business by spreading yourself thin. It's only natural that as the organization grows so does it's products. As new instructors are added they add thier area of expertise to that product.
Finally let me ask you: If you had a friend who was wrong about something would you tell him? Would you do so with malice, or self promotion in your heart? Of course not you would do so out of love, because ethically you felt it was your duty as a friend and a fellow human being.
Hope that clears things up a bit. Take it easy.
Clint
"Maybe some people don't want to fight. Maybe they don't want to spar and get hit in the face with boxing gloves and come home bruised. Some people (women and kids especially) just need a self esteem (confidence) boost from martial arts "
Unfortunly there self esteem may get bumped down a notch if they get into a situation where they should run, but instead they have a false chuck norris like image of what they can do to this guy becouse in tuesdays "modern tactical assult street combat blackbelt acadamys class" they had her yell "stop fucker" at a waterboy wearing football pads, kick him in the cup and go hug her girlfriends. Chances are if a big dude on the street wants her money, grabs her by the neck and she kicks him in the balls instead of giving up the cash, she is dead.
Whats the point of self confidence if deep in your heart you know its a fake? Train alive see what you can "actully" do. Then maybe the guy wont get to her neck, or she will respect fighting so much(and have no ego) that she would reconize if she was in danger becouse she knows what she can and cant handle and she would run like a motherfucker.
~Jamie
"in tuesdays "modern tactical assult street combat blackbelt acadamys class" they had her yell "stop fucker" at a waterboy wearing football pads, kick him in the cup and go hug her girlfriends."
Yo why you gotta call me a waterboy? :)
p.s. I miss CD World like a mofo
-Rage
I know where you are coming from, there aren't many of us who are lifers in the arts that didn't start somewhere and ended up moving on to other arts. And yes, I have laughed at my own expense too. But as a someone who began in a traditional art back in the 80's and moved on to JKD, MT, FMA, BJJ, and CSW in the 90's 'til today; I see these guys that have a great outlook on training and skills to boot, yet the message is tainted with derogatory terms like killakungfuCQB and the other cute nicknames I've seen thrown around referencing arts and styles. And this is done without having to actually name those criticised directly. Anonymous slams and digs deminish what is otherwise a great message. And this somewhat playful terminology is fun and appealing, especially to those that are attracted to the martial arts out of insecurity or a need to be "better" "bigger" or "stronger" than they are. That form of cumunication makes those who aren't included in your group perceive a negative peer consiquence of associating with kungfu or CQB, or as I've read in the past those training with Sifus, gurus, sensies and such. That is what I meant by "our way" or "your way". Not that the training belongs to any particular group or person. The syntax of the mesage is what is seperating groups, not the groups themselves.
Now I have read on numerous occasions that SBG posts have declared that those still mired in the dark ages of MA are going to be "uncommfortable, scared or insulted". This is another common way of discuraging dissenters. By closing debate with stating that those who disagree with you may "scared" insinuates that they are fearful and therefor weaker than you. Again making that kind of statement, the maker seems to be the "bigger" "better" "stronger" than the criticiser. (although you are quite correct in that some people will have fear of taking training into the contact arena)
I give strong props to anyone who trains, and even more to those that compete. Stepping in the gym is hard to do, and stepping in the ring is even harder. And I didn't want to imply that SBG doesn't have good fighters. By all means I'm sure they do. But I read otherwise good posts that flip my switch when they poke fun at others who they percieve as weaker than they are, or inferior in their training methods. And that has been a curious component of MT and SBG dialogues since day one. They tempor it with declarations of acceptance and understanding, but than talk down towards others. The criticisms placed by SBG of current training methods could address training methods without spending multiple paragraphs trying to show others from traditional MAs and now Self Defense practicioners are weak, scared or fearfully motivated, - except their Self Def and LEO methods. I've been a jock and competitor all my life and I've never liked the guys who cliqued up and picked on others. Even if they were to be found right 90% of the time, that 10% would make it wrong to make blanket criticism of styles. By criticising the style you wrong the individual. Hell I don't like it and I'm not a Kung Fu guy and have never seen a CQB class. The guys that were true leaders and had real talent were above all that, and there ideas and accomplishments shined without having to disparage others.
Now I may be accused of taking forum fun too seriously, but MT and SBG has a serious, deliberate and concentrated presence on many of the martial arts forums. Particularly those who represent the peers he seeks to attract to his flock. As well the SBG should, because everyone can benefit from the web to spread information and market themselves. But impact whether good or bad is equally magnified. Even if the assumption is made that these comments aren't meant for others to hear, that the joke is a private one shared among friends. The offense lies in the stregnthening of a culture of attitude that will not remain private.
Now I have seen many people who have tried to justify their criticisms of others. There are those that would have us believe that someones way of thinking, praying, or gathering is inferior or wrong and therefore it is right to ignore, fear, or hate because of color, religion, philosophy, or whatever. The only difference between knocking styles and the evil -isms of the world is the degree of the offence. Is that the road an aspiring Coach, Trainer, or Athlete should walk?
There is a difference between reason and coersion. If you state that you trully love the brotherhood of martial arts and athletes and you show others as weak, fearful or inferior, even if they are so. It makes you look like you only wish to profit from the weak, fearful and insecure yourselves.
I have always respected those that lead by example, and repected even more those that did so with class, poise and dignity.
Ray White
"That guy was all mouth and just wasn't ready for the sudden emotional challenge and my friend's Clint Eastwood eyes"
I don't know if that was serious, but thank you for the good laugh anyway.
Tactical fighter writes: " I see these guys that have a great outlook on training and skills to boot, yet the message is tainted with derogatory terms like killakungfuCQB and the other cute nicknames I've seen thrown around referencing arts and styles. And this is done without having to actually name those criticised directly."
Wow, dead on.
I still think they do a fantastic job with pointing out problems with current training methodologies and dead patterns. I know they opened my eyes.
"The criticisms placed by SBG of current training methods could address training methods without spending multiple paragraphs trying to show others from traditional MAs and now Self Defense practicioners are weak, scared or fearfully motivated, - except their Self Def and LEO methods."
Another home run!
You constantly see negative charactorizations of others followed by hollow disclaimers. Just look at some of the posts in the beginning of this thread. There is also a nausiating sense of self righteousness and political correctness run amok.
In fact in the thread titled "Review of Centerline Gym Training" the person writing it felt the need to make the disclaimers like: "Pre-contact was explained in great detail with something extra. Jerry teaches it in such away that you don't feel the need to buy Camouflage pants. This is straight talk that leaves you understanding the need for it with out the paranoid feelings."
Its like the guy is appologizing in advance for learning self defense.
Ive seen Jerry Wetzels "Red Zone" knife defense tape and it is probably the best I have ever seen. Jerry shows problems with certain common martial arts and self defense knife defenses without naming the arts or styles or making any vague negative comments about them or the people who practice them. He accomplishes what he needs without putting anyone down either indirectly or directly.
I agree with TacticalFighter and Tylerdurden. Very well said.
There is the cops (call 911) to do the job for you anyway.True story.I'm at the nice mall (area around the mall is upper middle class, easily). There's a fire department, police station 3 miles away from the mall. An elder woman is walking into the mall, when she collapses. Immediately, and I do mean immediately, cell phones come out and I know calls were placed to 911. It was 10 minutes before EMTs arrived.That's a very, very long time if someone wants to beat on you.
"being the author of numerous volumes on street fighting through Palladin Press will not keep you from getting pounded if you are fat and out of shape; being a first generation student of Bruce Lee will not save you from getting pounded if you spend more time with martial politics than you do training; and no amount of saying that it is a bad idea to go to the ground in a "real fight" will keep you from being grounded and pounded if you do not train some credible style of grappling.' That's the best quote I've seen in years.
Yes, it has the ring of truth.
Cheers
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
"My life is about love, and where it is not that is where I know I need to work."
Thanks, Kai, and Matt. On long threads like this I sometimes assume it all gets lost in the jumble.
I agree, as mentioned several times above, there is no need to name names, but that will never prevent me from offering some very recognizable martial "archetypes".
John Frankl
www.norcalbjj.com
Well said John. I feel adding a bit of humor and using a fictional or metaphorical name beats saying instructor x, y or z. I'ld expound on that but it seems I've caught the flu. I plan to be in bed for the next few days. Goodnight!
To say you don't do sports training or look down at it is ridiculous, unless someone is trying to kill or hurt you for real it is all sport. Dress it up how ever you want but that is the truth.
John and Rage,
Under what circumstances is ok to criticize a group and not the individual? Just because it is more convenient, anonymous, and leaves no room for rebuttle or consequences; doesn't mean it is justifiable.
You can't say you are doing for "their" good, that you don't want to insult anyone, because you then get to insult everyone in that group while hiding under a veil. It is completely morally unjustifiable, and without honor to criticise a practice or method and then loosely link it to various groups with loose descriptions or nicknames relating to those groups as a whole.
It would be better to look at these methods with a critical eye, make suggestions and experiment and discuss the findings. But when you speak of "the majority" or " a large group of these gym/dojos" are guilty of this or that you insult the individuals not deserving of inclusion in your slight.
Of course there will always be those who are more concerned about growing their egos, influence or pocket books, than keeping their dignity and honor. And the quickest way to lose yours is to try and take away someone elses...
Usually the challenger, the unproven and the struggling are the most likely to make comprimises in their moral standards to get ahead. They have the least to lose and the most to gain. The champions, the winners, the leaders are usually the most understanding and humble. Their experience is their proof of supperiority, and their example is their message. The stronger the message, the less you have to shout it out loud.
I think Hype is that last hurdle a contender has to overcome on the path to success. When one starts to measure the successes and failures of an important endeavor. One sees the importance of everyones contribution to the big picture, no matter what role we play.
Ray White
"All street fights I've seen ended on the feet or one opponent only went to the ground (from a punch, kick, throw or slip) and the othet guy kicked the shit out of him."
You still need to develop some ground (guard) skills to understand how to defend just that situation.
Martialartsfan from what i've seen of your oither posts u havent seen much in the way of "real" fights or training for that matter. Its a shame that u cant actually use any of your godgiven logic.