onepunchcombo - The whole eye gouge, groin shot thing was not the Krav Maga technique against an RNC. It was more of an "oh shit" option. I've trained in a choke similar to a RNC, but not a true RNC. That's why I was asking. The video above looked simple enough.
I understand exactly what you're saying. The best place to learn how to defend BJJ techniques would be in through strict BJJ training. Just as strict boxing, muy thai, etc.
But there's another layer to it. Put yourself in the mindset that this choke, bear hug, knife, pool cue, gun, rifle, beer bottle, 2 on 1, 3 on 1 is a life/death situation and train like that. I've never trained in BJJ so I'm pretty ignorant to what the training is like. If anything this thread has peaked my curiosity.
Like someone else posted in this thread..there are no guarantees a technique will work. If something goes down the wrong way, I hope people will do what they can to survive. Maybe even jam a thumb in someone's eye.
Boy, I didn't do Krav Maga any favors by that whole groin shot/eye gouge comment.
Yeah I think you do have a point bro, your first comment was foolish but I get where your coming from. I do agree that a life and death, self defense situation does require a different mindset, and some slightly different tactics perhaps, than a sporting contest.
It is also true that some people just want a quick overview of martial arts, and to be given an idea of what to do to defend themselves. But I think ideally something like krav should be an addition to an already existing skillset, rather than the final word in fighting, like some people are making out
I'd put money down that if you took two raw 16 yo 150# kids taught the one KM for 1 month, the other BJJ for 12 months, let them loose in the playgound, the KM kid would kicking the pending ghey out of him and bloody his cute pajamas up so badly he would never leave his house ever again.
onepunchcombo - The whole eye gouge, groin shot thing was not the Krav Maga technique against an RNC. It was more of an "oh shit" option. I've trained in a choke similar to a RNC, but not a true RNC. That's why I was asking. The video above looked simple enough.
I understand exactly what you're saying. The best place to learn how to defend BJJ techniques would be in through strict BJJ training. Just as strict boxing, muy thai, etc.
But there's another layer to it. Put yourself in the mindset that this choke, bear hug, knife, pool cue, gun, rifle, beer bottle, 2 on 1, 3 on 1 is a life/death situation and train like that. I've never trained in BJJ so I'm pretty ignorant to what the training is like. If anything this thread has peaked my curiosity.
Like someone else posted in this thread..there are no guarantees a technique will work. If something goes down the wrong way, I hope people will do what they can to survive. Maybe even jam a thumb in someone's eye.
Boy, I didn't do Krav Maga any favors by that whole groin shot/eye gouge comment.
Yeah I think you do have a point bro, your first comment was foolish but I get where your coming from. I do agree that a life and death, self defense situation does require a different mindset, and some slightly different tactics perhaps, than a sporting contest.
It is also true that some people just want a quick overview of martial arts, and to be given an idea of what to do to defend themselves. But I think ideally something like krav should be an addition to an already existing skillset, rather than the final word in fighting, like some people are making out
Don't get me wrong. I agree that anyone taking Krav could benefit from more specialized training to supplement the reality-based stuff. And Krav Maga is certainly not the final word in fighting. Don't think there is one.
onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?
Propose marriage. It's a well-known fact that men only looking for sex will run like hell from the mere hint of a wedding.
onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?
Propose marriage. It's a well-known fact that men only looking for sex will run like hell from the mere hint of a wedding.
juszczec - What MMA showed is that it is not the name of the style. Styles that practice with 100% live resistance work well.
True. So if you get a krav guy that trains with 100% live resistance then ....
Styles are defined by their training methods. Krav Maga practitioners almost always don't go live. If there is a krav guy going 100% live he is much better off all the other Krav Maga Practioners but he probably learned those training methods from an effective art.
Most of the technique being taught in Krav Maga curriculums would be thrown once they see the techniques being "taught" are very low percentage. This is for two reasons. One they still borrow from other unproven and ineffective arts. Secondly, techniques are not taught by experts in the subject. It's almost always some Krav guy teaching what he learned from some Israeli krav "expert" who learned it from youtube. To get transferable and repeatable skills one must go directly to a specialized expert in the subject. Go to the source and do not get 4th or 5th hand information.
Krav people are trying to take a short cut. They are just fooling themselves. There are no short cuts. You have to get in there and train with experts in each subject for a long time to become decent in anything. Train with people who focused on one aspect of fighting and go live with them. Train like them. There's no way around it.
Hands- boxing kicks- MT, kickboxers, even full contact karate ground- BJJ takedowns- wrestlers and judo players weapons- REAL experts who only focus on 100% live weapons training
Go train with guys like this and you will see what you are missing. Go to a BJJ gym for one year.
Israeli Krav Maga people don't even know what they don't know. They are arrogant because of "winning" so much in their choreographed drills, being fed propaganda, and being surrounded by their Krav cult. It's become a religion or national pride issues to these practitioners and training real martial arts is often frowned upon so that the truth isn't found.
I love these dick measuring contests. I've known guys that trained KM, and my only issue with it is that some of them think they're invincible because of it...similar to some karate guys. Due to the fact that at their school doesn't spar much, they don't often see the counter to their particular technique.
I've had many drunken conversations about this that usually go like this.
KM Friend - the best thing to do is knee the guy in the groin then punch him in the throat
Me - What if your knee catches me in the thigh, I slip your throat punch and counter with a straight right, left hook, straight right combo?
KM Friend - That wouldn't happen in real life. You wouldn't see the knee and punch coming. Maybe you'd avoid one, but not both.
or
KM Friend - the best thing to do is knee the guy in the groin then punch him in the throat
Me - What if I shoot a double leg and put you on your back and start dropping punches?
KM Friend - That wouldn't happen in real life. You wouldn't be able to take me down.
I think you get the point...there never seemed to be a step 2 or 3...which is fine, but the KM guys I know don't seem to realize that a step 2/3 might be needed. They assume their KM training is the variable, and don't even think/care about what the other guy might do.
While I think KM (along with just about any martial art) is really good for defending against an attacker who may not be expecting you to fight back, the false sense of invincibility is scary.
I've trained MMA (BJJ/Boxing/MT at various points also) and I found out on day 1 that I sucked and would get wrecked if I fought a tough guy at a bar, at the gym, at dairy queen...anywhere. I didn't get beat up bad or anything, but the sparring and live grappling is what made me realize I wasn't hot shit. Even a couple years in, I always felt human because someone at the gym was always better.
The lack of sparring makes people in many martial arts (not just KM) think EVERYTHING they've been taught works all the time. As long as they realize that's not the case, any martial art is better than no martial art.
Rickmassmma - I love these dick measuring contests. I've known guys that trained KM, and my only issue with it is that some of them think they're invincible because of it...similar to some karate guys. Due to the fact that at their school doesn't spar much, they don't often see the counter to their particular technique.
I've had many drunken conversations about this that usually go like this.
KM Friend - the best thing to do is knee the guy in the groin then punch him in the throat
Me - What if your knee catches me in the thigh, I slip your throat punch and counter with a straight right, left hook, straight right combo?
KM Friend - That wouldn't happen in real life. You wouldn't see the knee and punch coming. Maybe you'd avoid one, but not both.
or
KM Friend - the best thing to do is knee the guy in the groin then punch him in the throat
Me - What if I shoot a double leg and put you on your back and start dropping punches?
KM Friend - That wouldn't happen in real life. You wouldn't be able to take me down.
I think you get the point...there never seemed to be a step 2 or 3...which is fine, but the KM guys I know don't seem to realize that a step 2/3 might be needed. They assume their KM training is the variable, and don't even think/care about what the other guy might do.
While I think KM (along with just about any martial art) is really good for defending against an attacker who may not be expecting you to fight back, the false sense of invincibility is scary.
I've trained MMA (BJJ/Boxing/MT at various points also) and I found out on day 1 that I sucked and would get wrecked if I fought a tough guy at a bar, at the gym, at dairy queen...anywhere. I didn't get beat up bad or anything, but the sparring and live grappling is what made me realize I wasn't hot shit. Even a couple years in, I always felt human because someone at the gym was always better.
The lack of sparring makes people in many martial arts (not just KM) think EVERYTHING they've been taught works all the time. As long as they realize that's not the case, any martial art is better than no martial art.
Just as there are bad KM schools, there are bad KM students. Anyone that thinks that "that won't happen in real life" isn't getting it. Anything can happen. Seems like a level 1 student mentality.
I know that there are bullshit KM schools out there. Just like there's bullshit schools in every discipline. Not sure where the "They don't spar" thing came from. We spar all the time. Not just to practice striking and defense. But we also gear up drill the self defense aspect as well. Walking through a house...people in different rooms doing different attacks, person in the middle of a group that gets attack by variety of things. Someone chokes you...someone may have a weapon. Most cases we go about 50% on strikes or open hand palm strike to the top of hear gear. Some more advance classes involve headgear with face shields and chest protection at 100% intensity. Both in the attacks and the defense.
Truth be told, I don't think I'll be an elite level grappler or striker with a strict Krav training. But there's value in reality based training. And drilling it over and over like you would do in any discipline. Especially when it comes to weapon defenses.
You're right, there are good MMA schools and bad MMA schools, same as KM. I guess the easiest way to sum up my point is that the KM guys I know seem to be training to defend an attack from average joe attackers, not other guys that know KM or another martial art. It sounds like there are many KM schools that do go beyond that level of training, but the KM guys I've seen don't appear to know how to defend against an attacker with similar skills.
It probably is pretty similar to reality though, because your average guy that may try to fight you at a party or in a bar likely hasn't sparred hundreds of rounds at a boxing or MT gym, and likely hasn't won many grappling tournaments. If they have, they likely aren't attacking you at a bar over some bullshit.
juszczec - What MMA showed is that it is not the name of the style. Styles that practice with 100% live resistance work well.
True. So if you get a krav guy that trains with 100% live resistance then ....
Styles are defined by their training methods. Krav Maga practitioners almost always don't go live. If there is a krav guy going 100% live he is much better off all the other Krav Maga Practioners but he probably learned those training methods from an effective art.
Most of the technique being taught in Krav Maga curriculums would be thrown once they see the techniques being "taught" are very low percentage. This is for two reasons. One they still borrow from other unproven and ineffective arts. Secondly, techniques are not taught by experts in the subject. It's almost always some Krav guy teaching what he learned from some Israeli krav "expert" who learned it from youtube. To get transferable and repeatable skills one must go directly to a specialized expert in the subject. Go to the source and do not get 4th or 5th hand information.
Krav people are trying to take a short cut. They are just fooling themselves. There are no short cuts. You have to get in there and train with experts in each subject for a long time to become decent in anything. Train with people who focused on one aspect of fighting and go live with them. Train like them. There's no way around it.
Hands- boxing kicks- MT, kickboxers, even full contact karate ground- BJJ takedowns- wrestlers and judo players weapons- REAL experts who only focus on 100% live weapons training
Go train with guys like this and you will see what you are missing. Go to a BJJ gym for one year.
Israeli Krav Maga people don't even know what they don't know. They are arrogant because of "winning" so much in their choreographed drills, being fed propaganda, and being surrounded by their Krav cult. It's become a religion or national pride issues to these practitioners and training real martial arts is often frowned upon so that the truth isn't found.
"styles are defined by their training methods"
i don't know. here's an example. i do karate. i've never trained in any other striking method in my life. i've been hitting a heavy bag/focus mitts (instead of a makiwara) for 20 years. i stopped doing kata about 10 years ago. i wear boxing gloves and shoes when i spar. i haven't thrown a kick to the head in so long i don't remember the last time. i've never competed in a kickboxing match in my life.
what's my style?
i always thought a style was defined by the way they taught you to generate striking power thru the combination of moving the legs and body.
i agree, training with the experts in a particular method is the best way to achieve skill in that method. is skill in these different methods the only way to learn to fight? i'm not so sure.
is there style arrogance? oh hell yeah. without a doubt.
What about akido, any good? I saw this old dude, like 80 throw and disable multiple attackers in his dojo. They even used swords but they were useless against this guy, he would just chuck them. Looked legit....
jkkazmier - What about akido, any good? I saw this old dude, like 80 throw and disable multiple attackers in his dojo. They even used swords but they were useless against this guy, he would just chuck them. Looked legit....
i saw steven seagal shoot a bunch of guys using aikido with dual mac10's. best martial art IMO
ravenink - I'm confused by the comments about lack of live training. I've never done Krav, but I thought at level 2 they spar at 100%?
Most Krav Maga schools have some sparring at some point but only spar at 50%. Very light sparring. Classes are mostly of self-defense scenario drills and games. Most krav practitioners don't like live sparring with other styles or arts.
KyokushinCatch is correct.
"At its best, KM is good for what it's supposed to be: an easy to learn, easy to recall, and hopefully easy to apply fighting system for people with no prior effective fighting or martial art experience."
Key word is "hopefully" since most the students don't live test what they learn. It's good for people to learn some self-defense. It's better than nothing and fun fitness class. People should know the limitations of what they are learning though. It teaches you how to try not to fight, it doesn't teach you how to fight. I think people who trained krav maga would love BJJ and other combat sports if they put some time in and could get over losing. It's a good beginner class if people don't want to live train in martial arts, have a huge ego or have too many injuries.
