Seems like Krav maga would be a great to use when sucker punching, attacking someone by surprise type scenarios. I never believed in that system though, even though I've known people to have vouched for it. Shit even a HS friend of mine who's been living in israel for the past 10 years always posts pics of himself training MMA, and MT. He was also an israeli soldier for a long time, doubt he's in it now though.
FightsHurt -Krav Maga isn't a fighting system but a self defense system. Especially in the civilian version. Although there are similar tools the final goals are different. I would think that in MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, BJJ the goal is to become the best fighter, boxer, grappler etc. The training and sparring sessions are what it takes to reach that goal. In Krav the goal is to give you skills and more importantly...a mentality to handle real life situations. There is some sparring, but not at the level or frequency that you would get in other MAs.ravenink - I'm confused by the comments about lack of live training. I've never done Krav, but I thought at level 2 they spar at 100%?
Most Krav Maga schools have some sparring at some point but only spar at 50%. Very light sparring. Classes are mostly of self-defense scenario drills and games. Most krav practitioners don't like live sparring with other styles or arts.
KyokushinCatch is correct.
"At its best, KM is good for what it's supposed to be: an easy to learn, easy to recall, and hopefully easy to apply fighting system for people with no prior effective fighting or martial art experience."
Key word is "hopefully" since most the students don't live test what they learn. It's good for people to learn some self-defense. It's better than nothing and fun fitness class. People should know the limitations of what they are learning though. It teaches you how to try not to fight, it doesn't teach you how to fight. I think people who trained krav maga would love BJJ and other combat sports if they put some time in and could get over losing. It's a good beginner class if people don't want to live train in martial arts, have a huge ego or have too many injuries.
I know that schools vary, but I think I'm pretty lucky. We try to make each scenario or drill as real as possible within safe limits. Using real knives or guns is unrealistic. We did use real batons last night, and I'm bruised to shit because of it.
If someone says that Krav Maga is the best "fighting system" or thinks that they can take on anyone in the street because they learn it...they deserve to get an ass whooping. Although you never know what could happen, I'm less worried about facing a trained fighter in a bar, and more worried about the situations I can't walk away from. The Like Kyokushin said in his post..."Hopefully" I can do enough to survive the attack and GTFO.
onepunchcombo -FightsHurt -Krav Maga isn't a fighting system but a self defense system. Especially in the civilian version. Although there are similar tools the final goals are different. I would think that in MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, BJJ the goal is to become the best fighter, boxer, grappler etc. The training and sparring sessions are what it takes to reach that goal. In Krav the goal is to give you skills and more importantly...a mentality to handle real life situations. There is some sparring, but not at the level or frequency that you would get in other MAs.ravenink - I'm confused by the comments about lack of live training. I've never done Krav, but I thought at level 2 they spar at 100%?
Most Krav Maga schools have some sparring at some point but only spar at 50%. Very light sparring. Classes are mostly of self-defense scenario drills and games. Most krav practitioners don't like live sparring with other styles or arts.
KyokushinCatch is correct.
"At its best, KM is good for what it's supposed to be: an easy to learn, easy to recall, and hopefully easy to apply fighting system for people with no prior effective fighting or martial art experience."
Key word is "hopefully" since most the students don't live test what they learn. It's good for people to learn some self-defense. It's better than nothing and fun fitness class. People should know the limitations of what they are learning though. It teaches you how to try not to fight, it doesn't teach you how to fight. I think people who trained krav maga would love BJJ and other combat sports if they put some time in and could get over losing. It's a good beginner class if people don't want to live train in martial arts, have a huge ego or have too many injuries.
I know that schools vary, but I think I'm pretty lucky. We try to make each scenario or drill as real as possible within safe limits. Using real knives or guns is unrealistic. We did use real batons last night, and I'm bruised to shit because of it.
If someone says that Krav Maga is the best "fighting system" or thinks that they can take on anyone in the street because they learn it...they deserve to get an ass whooping. Although you never know what could happen, I'm less worried about facing a trained fighter in a bar, and more worried about the situations I can't walk away from. The Like Kyokushin said in his post..."Hopefully" I can do enough to survive the attack and GTFO.
personally i think this is a reasonable approach for the average human being - NOT the ones that wanna be MMA fighters or trane UFC.
but the one thing I don't understand is (and i'm NOT bashing on what you do) is instructors who DON'T use a lot of sparring.
i get that self defense and being able to fight with someone for 3 min are different things but done right i think there too many benefits to NOT use it as a training tool.
if absolutely NOTHING else - its a great conditioning drill.
juszczec -I guess it varies from school to school, and I can only tell you the type of training I do. Sparring increases as you move up. I didn't see any sparring at level 1. At level 2 we got introduced to it at a very light level. At level 3 the intensity is increased, and I'd say half of the classes you take will end with sparring. At level 4 you see it more often than not. I spar with other Krav students at my level, so I don't think I'm necessarily learning by going up against better opponents. It's more to use your striking and defenses.onepunchcombo -FightsHurt -Krav Maga isn't a fighting system but a self defense system. Especially in the civilian version. Although there are similar tools the final goals are different. I would think that in MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, BJJ the goal is to become the best fighter, boxer, grappler etc. The training and sparring sessions are what it takes to reach that goal. In Krav the goal is to give you skills and more importantly...a mentality to handle real life situations. There is some sparring, but not at the level or frequency that you would get in other MAs.ravenink - I'm confused by the comments about lack of live training. I've never done Krav, but I thought at level 2 they spar at 100%?
Most Krav Maga schools have some sparring at some point but only spar at 50%. Very light sparring. Classes are mostly of self-defense scenario drills and games. Most krav practitioners don't like live sparring with other styles or arts.
KyokushinCatch is correct.
"At its best, KM is good for what it's supposed to be: an easy to learn, easy to recall, and hopefully easy to apply fighting system for people with no prior effective fighting or martial art experience."
Key word is "hopefully" since most the students don't live test what they learn. It's good for people to learn some self-defense. It's better than nothing and fun fitness class. People should know the limitations of what they are learning though. It teaches you how to try not to fight, it doesn't teach you how to fight. I think people who trained krav maga would love BJJ and other combat sports if they put some time in and could get over losing. It's a good beginner class if people don't want to live train in martial arts, have a huge ego or have too many injuries.
I know that schools vary, but I think I'm pretty lucky. We try to make each scenario or drill as real as possible within safe limits. Using real knives or guns is unrealistic. We did use real batons last night, and I'm bruised to shit because of it.
If someone says that Krav Maga is the best "fighting system" or thinks that they can take on anyone in the street because they learn it...they deserve to get an ass whooping. Although you never know what could happen, I'm less worried about facing a trained fighter in a bar, and more worried about the situations I can't walk away from. The Like Kyokushin said in his post..."Hopefully" I can do enough to survive the attack and GTFO.
personally i think this is a reasonable approach for the average human being - NOT the ones that wanna be MMA fighters or trane UFC.
but the one thing I don't understand is (and i'm NOT bashing on what you do) is instructors who DON'T use a lot of sparring.
i get that self defense and being able to fight with someone for 3 min are different things but done right i think there too many benefits to NOT use it as a training tool.
if absolutely NOTHING else - its a great conditioning drill.
I think that because something like MMA or BJJ you know that you will be going up against a person with similar skill sets. So you sparring is the best way to test those skill sets.
In Krav you don't know who or what you will be up against. So it's more important to put you in the "scenario" to test your skill set and mentality. We do a lot of drills. In the upper levels there's more contact and intensity. Lower levels may seem more choreographed.
If there's a Krav school that doesn't include sparring...they're doing their members a disservice. I think that there is a misconception about what Krav is and is supposed to do. Look at it as a means of fighting and it's crap. Look at it as a means of surviving a potentially life threatening situation through the simple techniques, awareness, and a mentality and there's value.
In
Teresting 
TTT
onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?Honestly?
The truth is a 110 pound soccer mom who has not put in the mat time is not going to get out of this. Period. She can try all the groin grabs, biting and eye gouges but she will only get the 220 pound freak excited.
Welcome to reality.
However, I can tell you, the 110 pound purple belt girls at my gym would have tripped the 220 pound guy to the ground, escaped to half guard and taken the back. They do this all the time, everytime, against the big white belts who go 100% against everyone.
Actually someone posted a video that seemed to answer the question respectfully. I'm asking questions because I don't train in BJJ. I'm not making assumptions either.
What would you tell a loved one, sister, cousin, girlfriend, wife to do in that situation? I tell my wife who doesn't train to fight like hell if she's ever in a horrible situation like this.
Again...I wasn't offering up "The OFFICIAL Krav Maga Defense against an RNC". But for someone that hasn't put in the mat time or someone that hasn't had formal MA training that bite, scratch, eye gouge, hair pull may be the difference between someone getting raped and someone surviving.
Statistics show that the chances of survival go up significantly if a woman puts up a fight in a possible rape scenario. Most predators don't want a fight. Even the ugliest of strikes against an attacker can mean survival.
cm81 -onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?Honestly?
The truth is a 110 pound soccer mom who has not put in the mat time is not going to get out of this. Period. She can try all the groin grabs, biting and eye gouges but she will only get the 220 pound freak excited.
Welcome to reality.
However, I can tell you, the 110 pound purple belt girls at my gym would have tripped the 220 pound guy to the ground, escaped to half guard and taken the back. They do this all the time, everytime, against the big white belts who go 100% against everyone.
cm81. I'm only asking because I'm curious. Like I said in a previous post. I don't train in BJJ, so don't take this as a challenge, but honest curiosity.
When these women are doing this training is the temperament of the attacker? What is the nature of the attack when the RNC gets put on? Is the larger guy pulling her back? Dragging her (creating a possible rape scenario)? What does the woman do if she doesn't get the trip? From the video in a previous post, it looked like the defender wrapped a leg around the attacker to initiate the trip? What if the leg isn't there? What does the attacker do once the woman takes his back (she escaped the choke but is still in the fight at this point)?
onepunchcombo -That's one of the upsides of training with live, resisting opponents.cm81 -onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?Honestly?
The truth is a 110 pound soccer mom who has not put in the mat time is not going to get out of this. Period. She can try all the groin grabs, biting and eye gouges but she will only get the 220 pound freak excited.
Welcome to reality.
However, I can tell you, the 110 pound purple belt girls at my gym would have tripped the 220 pound guy to the ground, escaped to half guard and taken the back. They do this all the time, everytime, against the big white belts who go 100% against everyone.
cm81. I'm only asking because I'm curious. Like I said in a previous post. I don't train in BJJ, so don't take this as a challenge, but honest curiosity.
When these women are doing this training is the temperament of the attacker? What is the nature of the attack when the RNC gets put on? Is the larger guy pulling her back? Dragging her (creating a possible rape scenario)? What does the woman do if she doesn't get the trip? From the video in a previous post, it looked like the defender wrapped a leg around the attacker to initiate the trip? What if the leg isn't there? What does the attacker do once the woman takes his back (she escaped the choke but is still in the fight at this point)?
A legitimate bjj purple belt is going to know and be able to apply a variety of escapes, depending on what her opponent gives her. She's not going to have just one move that she's drilled a few times with compliant partners.
The best way out of a surprise, no hooks RNC will depend on how deeply it's sunk and how it's being applied. A female BJJ purple belt will have literally put in thousands of hours over several years live rolling at 100% intensity with men who are much bigger and stronger than she is, and she's going to have the kinetic awareness to discern the higher percentage routes of escape given the particulars of the scenario.
If she takes his back, she'll apply her own RNC and decide after he passes out whether she wants to kill him by keeping the hold or let him live by releasing him.
Of course, if the attacker really has a fully and properly applied RNC, then it's entirely possible nothing will work and she'll go out. Elite black belts get subbed by elite competition all the time. Give me enough of a head start and I could RNC Marcus Buchecha.
But I bet Kyra Gracie would be a handful to try and drag into a car, and I bet she could get out of my blue belt level standing RNC.
^And that has nothing to do with criticizing KM by the way. Just responding to your questions. :)
I appreciate it.
onepunchcombo -FightsHurt -Krav Maga isn't a fighting system but a self defense system. Especially in the civilian version. Although there are similar tools the final goals are different. I would think that in MMA, Muy Thai, Boxing, BJJ the goal is to become the best fighter, boxer, grappler etc. The training and sparring sessions are what it takes to reach that goal. In Krav the goal is to give you skills and more importantly...a mentality to handle real life situations. There is some sparring, but not at the level or frequency that you would get in other MAs.ravenink - I'm confused by the comments about lack of live training. I've never done Krav, but I thought at level 2 they spar at 100%?
Most Krav Maga schools have some sparring at some point but only spar at 50%. Very light sparring. Classes are mostly of self-defense scenario drills and games. Most krav practitioners don't like live sparring with other styles or arts.
KyokushinCatch is correct.
"At its best, KM is good for what it's supposed to be: an easy to learn, easy to recall, and hopefully easy to apply fighting system for people with no prior effective fighting or martial art experience."
Key word is "hopefully" since most the students don't live test what they learn. It's good for people to learn some self-defense. It's better than nothing and fun fitness class. People should know the limitations of what they are learning though. It teaches you how to try not to fight, it doesn't teach you how to fight. I think people who trained krav maga would love BJJ and other combat sports if they put some time in and could get over losing. It's a good beginner class if people don't want to live train in martial arts, have a huge ego or have too many injuries.
I know that schools vary, but I think I'm pretty lucky. We try to make each scenario or drill as real as possible within safe limits. Using real knives or guns is unrealistic. We did use real batons last night, and I'm bruised to shit because of it.
If someone says that Krav Maga is the best "fighting system" or thinks that they can take on anyone in the street because they learn it...they deserve to get an ass whooping. Although you never know what could happen, I'm less worried about facing a trained fighter in a bar, and more worried about the situations I can't walk away from. The Like Kyokushin said in his post..."Hopefully" I can do enough to survive the attack and GTFO.
This was an attempt at an honest explanation and a good response. Thanks you. Most krav guys get caught in trying to prove they spar when everyone knows the krav definition of sparring is much different. To most other arts 50% is not sparring.
My point is that a nearly all pure Krav Maga practitioners typically do not progress beyond beginner level technique in actual combat even after years of training. I feel it has too big of a focus preparing on a mentality for certain situations that almost never happen. If they do happen I feel most Krav people will not be ready for the intensity due to the lack of 100% sparring and they untested, unproven techniques.
The goal of the other arts can be explained better.
The goal of Jiu-Jitsu is control. You can control an attacker/opponent with as little effort and strength as possible so that they can not hurt you and then you decide the use of force needed to apply in that situation. Having the ability to do that to anyone is the goal of BJJ. Sport BJJ is popular now days but BJJ gives practitioners these abilities.
The goal of boxing is to knock someone out. To use punches and movement to do as much damage to an opponent/attacker without taking punches. To be an absolute expert in punching and defending punches.
The goal of MMA is to allow martial artist of many different styles, techniques, disciplines and arts to try defeat or dominate another highly trained martial artist in mutual combat.
The goal of muy thai is to use shins,elbows, knees, punches and kicks in a standing clinch or striking contest. To use you these weapons in the most damaging ways possible.
These arts are all very sophisticated systems of fighting. The have been passed down from generation to generation and evolved to be as effective as possible through natural selection. Theories, techniques and strategies are tested live and BS is thrown out. These skills can be transfered to anyone if have focused training with an expert instructor in any of the above arts.
This is not true with Krav Maga. Krav classes are usually have instructors teaching classes and techniques that they don't know very well. They have never done in a live situation. Theory over facts.
TTT
holy lurkers batman!
What if a 110-pound soccer mom is attacked by an 800 pound polar bear while putting her groceries in her car? BJJ would be worthless in such situations. At my school, we drill these kinds of scenarios every day.
That's the difference between sport "fighting" and training for reality.
onepunchcombo -No problem. You've been incredibly pleasant despite all our harsh criticisms of Krav (well, this is an MMA site after all).cm81 -onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?Honestly?
The truth is a 110 pound soccer mom who has not put in the mat time is not going to get out of this. Period. She can try all the groin grabs, biting and eye gouges but she will only get the 220 pound freak excited.
Welcome to reality.
However, I can tell you, the 110 pound purple belt girls at my gym would have tripped the 220 pound guy to the ground, escaped to half guard and taken the back. They do this all the time, everytime, against the big white belts who go 100% against everyone.
cm81. I'm only asking because I'm curious. Like I said in a previous post. I don't train in BJJ, so don't take this as a challenge, but honest curiosity.
When these women are doing this training is the temperament of the attacker? What is the nature of the attack when the RNC gets put on? Is the larger guy pulling her back? Dragging her (creating a possible rape scenario)? What does the woman do if she doesn't get the trip? From the video in a previous post, it looked like the defender wrapped a leg around the attacker to initiate the trip? What if the leg isn't there? What does the attacker do once the woman takes his back (she escaped the choke but is still in the fight at this point)?
Don't get offended, but I think that you have inadvertantly highlighted one of the problems of RBSD here... It is FULL of theory... e.g. what happens if the guy pulls her back, what happens if the guy did this or that etc. This is a common theme in all RBSD and arts that don't spar... It is about theory and accumulation of techniques for every thought up situation.
You have not done BJJ (but believe it or not, I have tried Krav), so I suggest it is your turn to bite the bullet and do some BJJ, and try rolling with a female purple belt. She won't think like you do, as in "oh you are pulling me back, so I will do A and B"... she will simply flow with what you do to her. She can do this as she has put in countless of hours of hard rolling and I guarantee you will not choke her from any position.
MTH -This... Couldn't have said it any better.onepunchcombo -That's one of the upsides of training with live, resisting opponents.cm81 -onepunchcombo - Question: You're a 110lb soccer mom trying to get into your car. A 220lb man comes up behind you and puts you in an RNC. It's under your chin, and he wants to drag you to his car. What do you do to get out of this situation?Honestly?
The truth is a 110 pound soccer mom who has not put in the mat time is not going to get out of this. Period. She can try all the groin grabs, biting and eye gouges but she will only get the 220 pound freak excited.
Welcome to reality.
However, I can tell you, the 110 pound purple belt girls at my gym would have tripped the 220 pound guy to the ground, escaped to half guard and taken the back. They do this all the time, everytime, against the big white belts who go 100% against everyone.
cm81. I'm only asking because I'm curious. Like I said in a previous post. I don't train in BJJ, so don't take this as a challenge, but honest curiosity.
When these women are doing this training is the temperament of the attacker? What is the nature of the attack when the RNC gets put on? Is the larger guy pulling her back? Dragging her (creating a possible rape scenario)? What does the woman do if she doesn't get the trip? From the video in a previous post, it looked like the defender wrapped a leg around the attacker to initiate the trip? What if the leg isn't there? What does the attacker do once the woman takes his back (she escaped the choke but is still in the fight at this point)?
A legitimate bjj purple belt is going to know and be able to apply a variety of escapes, depending on what her opponent gives her. She's not going to have just one move that she's drilled a few times with compliant partners.
The best way out of a surprise, no hooks RNC will depend on how deeply it's sunk and how it's being applied. A female BJJ purple belt will have literally put in thousands of hours over several years live rolling at 100% intensity with men who are much bigger and stronger than she is, and she's going to have the kinetic awareness to discern the higher percentage routes of escape given the particulars of the scenario.
If she takes his back, she'll apply her own RNC and decide after he passes out whether she wants to kill him by keeping the hold or let him live by releasing him.
Of course, if the attacker really has a fully and properly applied RNC, then it's entirely possible nothing will work and she'll go out. Elite black belts get subbed by elite competition all the time. Give me enough of a head start and I could RNC Marcus Buchecha.
But I bet Kyra Gracie would be a handful to try and drag into a car, and I bet she could get out of my blue belt level standing RNC.
cm81 -In Moti Horenstein's defense he probably wasn't beating Prime Mark Kerr if he got to use a baseball bat...FortyKoatz - love these threads.Yup.
What puzzles me the most is why they keep appearing on MMA forums... Especially since Krav was an art which fared extremely poorly back in early MMA, which had few if any (enforced) rules.
So, last thought. Krav Maga is a system with limitations. I think the ideal situation would be to have a strong background in something like MMA and take those skills into a reality based system. This discussion has been helpful...there's always more training out there. Age, time, and funds make that a little hard for me.
Right now I can't say what will happen if a gang banger pulls a gun on me, if three guys jump me in an alley, or if someone kicks in my door attempting a home invasion. Like other's have said, it's only tested in drills and mock scenarios with as much realism as possible. Without actually getting mugged or jumped...I haven't tested it.
I know of at least one person that did use it in a robbery attempt where he was faced in a 2 on 1 scenario. Hopefully if all goes well...I'll never have to use any of it.
I'm a pretty non-threatening person, and aside from the fact that I may have received the Cliff Notes version of some more specialized MA training...the system has instilled something pretty valuable. Not a false sense of security or over confidence. But an awareness that anything can happen, and if needed, there's this ugly-side that I can call on to help in the worst possible situation.