Elias Cepeda -
Krav Maga is going to get some poor fools killed
uh, yeah...
that's exactly what I thought when I watched that vid on page one of this thread.
i wouldn't even let my girlfriend watch that fucking video
uh, yeah...
that's exactly what I thought when I watched that vid on page one of this thread.
i wouldn't even let my girlfriend watch that fucking video
FightsHurt - Krav Maga takedown defense!FYI. I believe that's Moni Azik, founder of Commando "Krav Maga". He has no connection or affiliation to any organization based on Imi Lichtenfeld's (founder of KM) teachings. He is thought of as a fraud by most legitimate KM organizations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNLrxp459gc
I've ranted about this subject for a long time. It's mostly a gimmick and great marketing. I could start a martial art called Irish Bar Fighting and it would involve all the same techniques and scenarios trained in Krav. No one WITH ANY MONEY would sign up for it. Attach a fancy name and claim an elite military unit uses it, BOOM, money maker. If you need to be taught how to groin strike, gouge or bite, fighting isn't for you. And I guarantee if you had a good mma fighter fight a krav guy one round under mma rules, the next with no rules, you'd see no difference in the outcome 99.99999% of the time
@AJM...I agree with this, and I study KM. Like the previous post stated, Krav is meant for the common person. So when you say if you need to bite, groin kick, or gouge you have no business being a fighter...there's some truth to that. I pretty sure most KM instructors would tell you that they're not building fighters...but more of a fighting chance for everyday people. By giving them a set of tools and more importantly a survival mentality, people have a better chance to walk away in a life or death situation.
I think the chances of a KM student confrontation with an MMA fighter are pretty slim. The chances of ANYONE coming into a confrontation with a POS person intending to inflict bodily harm to you or your loved one is much greater. Be it a person with a weapon, multiple attackers, home invasion, attempted robbery, rape, etc.
KM as a system gives people basic striking and grappling skills, but focuses more on the application/improvisation of these skills in these real life scenarios. If faced with a one on one attack, the KM student would try to do what ever is possible to create an opportunity for escape...no more...no less. To stand and trade with an trained fighter is not what the system is designed for...so you're right in the "who would win" scenario.
in
I have a question. It's not a knock against grappling arts, but curiosity. Yesterday, we finished class early and decided to do some light sparring on the ground. I was able to take my opponent's back and attempted a very sloppy RNC (never actually learned the technique...just too much UFC). While I was fighting to get it under the guy's chin, the instructor ran over and started stomping my head (simulated).
All the street fights I've seen (YouTube and real life) rarely involve one person. The instructor wanted to simulate this. Got the message. In this case...I kinda strayed from KM principles and went for a submission instead of an escape. Would have payed dearly in real life.
How would a BJJ practitioner, wrestler, etc handle this? Is this kind of situation addressed in BJJ? I've been seriously considering BJJ to improve my ground skills (or lack there of)..
onepunchcombo - I have a question. It's not a knock against grappling arts, but curiosity. Yesterday, we finished class early and decided to do some light sparring on the ground. I was able to take my opponent's back and attempted a very sloppy RNC (never actually learned the technique...just too much UFC). While I was fighting to get it under the guy's chin, the instructor ran over and started stomping my head (simulated).
All the street fights I've seen (YouTube and real life) rarely involve one person. The instructor wanted to simulate this. Got the message. In this case...I kinda strayed from KM principles and went for a submission instead of an escape. Would have payed dearly in real life.
How would a BJJ practitioner, wrestler, etc handle this? Is this kind of situation addressed in BJJ? I've been seriously considering BJJ to improve my ground skills (or lack there of)..
I can't speak for BJJ as a whole obviously, but as a reasonably good blue belt I'll take a shot.
Firstly, most real fights I've seen in person or in a video in fact ARE one-on-one. Muggings and the like tend to involve more guys, but oftentimes fights arising out of traffic problems, bar room confrontations, the drunk uncle at a family reunion, etc. end up being one guy against another guy. Everyone else just watches.
Secondly, when a real fight isn't one-on-one, this is usually obvious from the get-go. Like when four guys approach someone alone in a parking lot. While you can find an instance of almost anything occurring a few times, you don't see a lot of one-on-one fights where some random bystander suddenly jumps in. It happens of course, but more commonly you know who the participants are right from the start.
Thirdly, when you are fighting multiple opponents, the fact is that no skill set is really going to give you any better than marginal chances to come out on top. If you are legitimately in a fight with two or more guys, you've got big problems no matter what your training is unless you've got a weapon.
So that's just to say there are indeed one-on-one fights out there where "all the guy's friends" aren't an issue, and when there are lots of guys to fight you might be screwed no matter what.
But setting all that aside, if I were in a confrontation with the potential for mulitple opponents, I would utilize my BJJ skills quite differently than you did. The focus would be on staying up, which is something that grappling training makes me better at than most. If I went down anyway, the focus would be on taking/keeping top position and either (a) quickly breaking something, (b) quickly GNPing the guy's head, or (c) quickly getting back up.
In other words, a good sub grappler facing multiple opponents is going to try to stay off the ground, and if he can't he's going to try to cause severe injury right away and then get back up quickly.
So faced with multiple opponents, I would NOT try to apply a choke that commits me to holding a position for 10 or 15 seconds until the guy goes out. Aside from exposing me to a beat down from the other opponents, it doesn't even end the fight with the first guy--unless I stay on his back and just loosen the choke a bit to wait for him to come to again, the guy wakes back up in 30 seconds or so and is once again a threat.
So getting kicked in the head by another opponent while applying an RNC is not really a problem with BJJ per se. The problem is attempting to use the wrong grappling technique for the situation.
MTH -Thanks for the info. In this case, it was a one on one fight that turned into a multiple attacker situation. There are no absolutes, that's the problem. If you're in a one on one situation...going for a choke seemed like the right thing...unless you fight with the assumption that it's never a one on one fight. You can't guarantee that someone won't jump in, even bystanders standing around. You can't guarantee that multiple guys won't jump in at the same time. How does BJJ address these types adjustments? One fight can quickly turn into a different type of fight...be it the addition of another attacker, weapons, environment etc.onepunchcombo - I have a question. It's not a knock against grappling arts, but curiosity. Yesterday, we finished class early and decided to do some light sparring on the ground. I was able to take my opponent's back and attempted a very sloppy RNC (never actually learned the technique...just too much UFC). While I was fighting to get it under the guy's chin, the instructor ran over and started stomping my head (simulated).
All the street fights I've seen (YouTube and real life) rarely involve one person. The instructor wanted to simulate this. Got the message. In this case...I kinda strayed from KM principles and went for a submission instead of an escape. Would have payed dearly in real life.
How would a BJJ practitioner, wrestler, etc handle this? Is this kind of situation addressed in BJJ? I've been seriously considering BJJ to improve my ground skills (or lack there of)..I can't speak for BJJ as a whole obviously, but as a reasonably good blue belt I'll take a shot.
Firstly, most real fights I've seen in person or in a video in fact ARE one-on-one. Muggings and the like tend to involve more guys, but oftentimes fights arising out of traffic problems, bar room confrontations, the drunk uncle at a family reunion, etc. end up being one guy against another guy. Everyone else just watches.
Secondly, when a real fight isn't one-on-one, this is usually obvious from the get-go. Like when four guys approach someone alone in a parking lot. While you can find an instance of almost anything occurring a few times, you don't see a lot of one-on-one fights where some random bystander suddenly jumps in. It happens of course, but more commonly you know who the participants are right from the start.
Thirdly, when you are fighting multiple opponents, the fact is that no skill set is really going to give you any better than marginal chances to come out on top. If you are legitimately in a fight with two or more guys, you've got big problems no matter what your training is unless you've got a weapon.
So that's just to say there are indeed one-on-one fights out there where "all the guy's friends" aren't an issue, and when there are lots of guys to fight you might be screwed no matter what.
But setting all that aside, if I were in a confrontation with the potential for mulitple opponents, I would utilize my BJJ skills quite differently than you did. The focus would be on staying up, which is something that grappling training makes me better at than most. If I went down anyway, the focus would be on taking/keeping top position and either (a) quickly breaking something, (b) quickly GNPing the guy's head, or (c) quickly getting back up.
In other words, a good sub grappler facing multiple opponents is going to try to stay off the ground, and if he can't he's going to try to cause severe injury right away and then get back up quickly.
So faced with multiple opponents, I would NOT try to apply a choke that commits me to holding a position for 10 or 15 seconds until the guy goes out. Aside from exposing me to a beat down from the other opponents, it doesn't even end the fight with the first guy--unless I stay on his back and just loosen the choke a bit to wait for him to come to again, the guy wakes back up in 30 seconds or so and is once again a threat.
So getting kicked in the head by another opponent while applying an RNC is not really a problem with BJJ per se. The problem is attempting to use the wrong grappling technique for the situation.
The thing is..there are techniques that can help you in a multiple attacker situation even if you're unarmed. Positioning. Stacking your opponents. Movement. Situational/environmental awareness.
^^It's also worth noting that grappling training typically involves substantial amounts of takedown practice, either wrestling or judo based.
There's no reason I have to follow an opponent to the ground after I hit a fast hip throw or stay with him on the ground after hitting a double leg. He just hits the ground hard--I don't--and he gets left there while I stay up to deal with the other guys.
Again, it comes down to using the right grappling-based technique at the right time. While it would certainly be within your skill set as a grappler, you would never opt to stay down with a guy looking for positional dominance and chokes while his buddies are circling the wagons looking to kick you in the head.
Also...If it was a real fight. I would try to remain standing also. We were doing ground work specifically. I realized that I did make mistakes, mostly when I had his back, I had the opportunity to strike and get out instead of staying on the ground.
MTH...trust me if there were guys circling I wouldn't be trying for a submission. The instructor came in from out of my sight line, I was so focused on the one on one fight, that I didn't even consider a second attacker. That's my fault and clearly illustrated my the instructor. I can't assume that it's going to be just me and the attacker in front of me...no matter what...not even in the classroom.
onepunchcombo -MTH -Thanks for the info. In this case, it was a one on one fight that turned into a multiple attacker situation. There are no absolutes, that's the problem. If you're in a one on one situation...going for a choke seemed like the right thing...unless you fight with the assumption that it's never a one on one fight. You can't guarantee that someone won't jump in, even bystanders standing around. You can't guarantee that multiple guys won't jump in at the same time. How does BJJ address these types adjustments? One fight can quickly turn into a different type of fight...be it the addition of another attacker, weapons, environment etc.onepunchcombo - I have a question. It's not a knock against grappling arts, but curiosity. Yesterday, we finished class early and decided to do some light sparring on the ground. I was able to take my opponent's back and attempted a very sloppy RNC (never actually learned the technique...just too much UFC). While I was fighting to get it under the guy's chin, the instructor ran over and started stomping my head (simulated).
All the street fights I've seen (YouTube and real life) rarely involve one person. The instructor wanted to simulate this. Got the message. In this case...I kinda strayed from KM principles and went for a submission instead of an escape. Would have payed dearly in real life.
How would a BJJ practitioner, wrestler, etc handle this? Is this kind of situation addressed in BJJ? I've been seriously considering BJJ to improve my ground skills (or lack there of)..I can't speak for BJJ as a whole obviously, but as a reasonably good blue belt I'll take a shot.
Firstly, most real fights I've seen in person or in a video in fact ARE one-on-one. Muggings and the like tend to involve more guys, but oftentimes fights arising out of traffic problems, bar room confrontations, the drunk uncle at a family reunion, etc. end up being one guy against another guy. Everyone else just watches.
Secondly, when a real fight isn't one-on-one, this is usually obvious from the get-go. Like when four guys approach someone alone in a parking lot. While you can find an instance of almost anything occurring a few times, you don't see a lot of one-on-one fights where some random bystander suddenly jumps in. It happens of course, but more commonly you know who the participants are right from the start.
Thirdly, when you are fighting multiple opponents, the fact is that no skill set is really going to give you any better than marginal chances to come out on top. If you are legitimately in a fight with two or more guys, you've got big problems no matter what your training is unless you've got a weapon.
So that's just to say there are indeed one-on-one fights out there where "all the guy's friends" aren't an issue, and when there are lots of guys to fight you might be screwed no matter what.
But setting all that aside, if I were in a confrontation with the potential for mulitple opponents, I would utilize my BJJ skills quite differently than you did. The focus would be on staying up, which is something that grappling training makes me better at than most. If I went down anyway, the focus would be on taking/keeping top position and either (a) quickly breaking something, (b) quickly GNPing the guy's head, or (c) quickly getting back up.
In other words, a good sub grappler facing multiple opponents is going to try to stay off the ground, and if he can't he's going to try to cause severe injury right away and then get back up quickly.
So faced with multiple opponents, I would NOT try to apply a choke that commits me to holding a position for 10 or 15 seconds until the guy goes out. Aside from exposing me to a beat down from the other opponents, it doesn't even end the fight with the first guy--unless I stay on his back and just loosen the choke a bit to wait for him to come to again, the guy wakes back up in 30 seconds or so and is once again a threat.
So getting kicked in the head by another opponent while applying an RNC is not really a problem with BJJ per se. The problem is attempting to use the wrong grappling technique for the situation.
The thing is..there are techniques that can help you in a multiple attacker situation even if you're unarmed. Positioning. Stacking your opponents. Movement. Situational/environmental awareness.
No doubt anybody can get beatdown in the right circumstances.
The bottomline is that I just wouldn't use any kind of positional control/choking attack if I thought there was a chance of more guys jumping in. You're limiting your mobility too sharply. In terms of self-defense, a positional control/choking attack is suited for the aggressive homeless guy or mouthy drunk uncle, not a gang of attackers.
When it comes to multiple opponents, you want to use your grappling skills to stay up and/or perhaps slam guys. But if you must go down, then you must either (a) get up quickly or (b) cause severe injury and then get up quickly.
If, somehow and against all common sense, you end up falling into a positional control/choking attack and suddenly remember that there are other possible opponents, then you've got to be ready to bail. Either stand up if you're on top or hip bump him over if you're on the bottom.
Now . . . I've trained at a number of BJJ academies, and I must admit that nobody has ever "taught" me what I'm advocating. It's just seems like common sense.
I consider myself a decent striker. I can hold my own on my feet most any day. So if I get into a fight, and it stays standing...I'm ok.
My buddy was a 2 time state champ wrestler and was 5-0 in ammy mma. His striking is ok.
His strength is obviously on the ground.
If I was to get into a fight with him I'd get owned.
My opinion is this. Unless a guy can land a big shot quickly (me), he's going to get taken down and hurt.
BJJ has really taken fighting in a whole new direction. You can find vids all day long on much smaller guys and gals beating larger opponents with good technique. Striking is not enough these days in most fights. 
onepunchcombo - MTH...trust me if there were guys circling I wouldn't be trying for a submission. The instructor came in from out of my sight line, I was so focused on the one on one fight, that I didn't even consider a second attacker. That's my fault and clearly illustrated my the instructor. I can't assume that it's going to be just me and the attacker in front of me...no matter what...not even in the classroom.
Gotcha.
Just to be clear though, if I were faced with multiple opponents and suddenly found myself on the ground I agree I wouldn't seek a "submission" (i.e., a hold where I tried to encourage the guy to "give up"), but I would gladly take what would normally be a joint lock submission and just make no effort to wait for the "tap."
For example, if the leader of a potential group of opponents catches you by surprise with football-style tackle, I think it a reasonable response to secure guard on the way down, hip sweep him over the moment you hit the floor, slap on a keylock that just shreds through the shoulder, and then hop back up.
It'd be a pretty fast way back to your feet and at least partially disables one opponent.
Cool. Thanks for the info.
This thread is Lurktastic
TheTruthIsImaVERAfiedBitch - This thread is LurktasticYeah. Dead Rising. I just had a situation in class yesterday. Wanted to get a BJJ perspective.
Good thread , vtfu all of you ( one a day)
Good thread , vtfu all of you ( one a day)
MTH -My bad..."submissions" wouldn't be the intent. I don't think anyone should be trying to make someone tap.onepunchcombo - MTH...trust me if there were guys circling I wouldn't be trying for a submission. The instructor came in from out of my sight line, I was so focused on the one on one fight, that I didn't even consider a second attacker. That's my fault and clearly illustrated my the instructor. I can't assume that it's going to be just me and the attacker in front of me...no matter what...not even in the classroom.
Gotcha.
Just to be clear though, if I were faced with multiple opponents and suddenly found myself on the ground I agree I wouldn't seek a "submission" (i.e., a hold where I tried to encourage the guy to "give up"), but I would gladly take what would normally be a joint lock submission and just make no effort to wait for the "tap."
For example, if the leader of a potential group of opponents catches you by surprise with football-style tackle, I think it a reasonable response to secure guard on the way down, hip sweep him over the moment you hit the floor, slap on a keylock that just shreds through the shoulder, and then hop back up.
It'd be a pretty fast way back to your feet and at least partially disables one opponent.