This is the pinnacle of the art

[Red_Stuff]

Horn vs Liddell UFC 19

What a great fight, by the way. Horn is so technical with his passing and transitions. He ended up putting Chuck to sleep with an arm triangle from bottom.

[de_braco]

in amateur wrestling(pre mid 50's) that was called a "stopper" toe hold and it wasn't considered a true submission hold, it was useful for getting someone to turn to their back

[mideastgrappler]

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Your points are valid. They are indeed beyond most 9f us, certainly myself. I suppos peolles hate(or at least my own) for what is exhibited in this style of play is a reaction to what the art/style is beijg channeled to....absurdity, but indeed increcredibly skillful. Such is my gripe with sport eventually defining the style, its objectives of training and its technical repertoire.

 

 

[Soul_Gravy]

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

LOL okay, guy.

[Soul_Gravy]

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

[Caladan]

Soul Gravy -

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

…and they’d both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

[Soul_Gravy]

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

…and they’d both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

I don’t recall saying they wouldn’t? But I’m sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

[Caladan]

Soul Gravy -

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

…and they’d both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

I don’t recall saying they wouldn’t? But I’m sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don’t mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don’t?

[Easters]

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

[Lazarus]

For people saying it doesn't matter if they train an ifbjj rule set: those of us who object to the 50/50 leglock game, etc., are likely old school guys. We have a purist view of bjj as a fighting art. For me, the art should focus on a fight plan to close the distance, take down, mount, strike, then choke or arm lock. That is an effective fight plan proven through years of challenge matches, vale tudo fights, etc. It isn't quite as easy against modern highly trained mma fighters who are takedown defence experts, and so forth. But it is still (arguably) the most effective fight plan against 99.999% of the population.

The more bjj moves away from that basic fight plan and the more it evolves into a system designed to game a certain rule set, the less effective it becomes for a self defence system. Two people rolling around in circles while grabbing each other’s ankles is ridiculous.

So yeah, high level practitioners of ifbjj ruleset sport jiu jitsu would still choke the fuck out of most of us here. But if their goal was fighting ability, then they have wasted a lot of time with useless stuff to the detriment of more effective training.

[shen]

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

[Caladan]

shen -

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I’m just curious when it’s okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.

[Easters]

The best part is most of the guys who are sticklers for the "old school real Jiu Jitsu" never even competed much or fought MMA, but love to take stabs at the guys who compete at a high level and could kick their ass. My other favorite part is they love to talk about "pressure" when the pressure passing of today is light years ahead of before.  

[Easters]

shen -

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?

[Easters]

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

[Sgt._Slaphead]

what does competition or fighting mma have to do with "old school real jiujitsu".

What does competition have to do with fighting?.....whose ass they kicking and in what format? Ive seen people eat punches....i seen how they react despite their grappling training. FUCKING LOL! My fr9end had a black belt in his LE recruit class that had no clue about using his skills for fighting. But if you mean beating up a drunk....sure.

 

[shen]

Caladan - 

shen -

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I’m just curious when it’s okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.

That particular sweep can be done no gi, so certainly has ‘connection’ to fighting.

I don’t know where the exact line is, but I know when I see people play in a way where it would be very hard to do most of that stuff with strikes.

It’s a continuum and people play jiu jitsu in ways that fall on all sorts of places along that continuum.

[shen]

Easters - 

shen -

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

Funny, not many of those guys did very well in MMA.  I mean a handful did OK, but most had a few fights and fizzled out.  Why do you think that is, if that style is so good for fighting?

I didn’t say it was ‘so good for fighting’, I implied that it was better and more connected to fighting than a lot of the modern sport BJJ.

The best style for fighting is MMA.

[Caladan]

shen -

Caladan - 

shen -

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

At least it had some connection to fighting.

Ive seen you teach stuff that has no connection to fighting (harpoon sweep for example). I’m just curious when it’s okay and when its not. 

 

Its okay to not like modern jiu jitsu but idk why people have to sh*t on it and the competitors - the OP was clearly mocking it despite how quickly any of us would be subbed by an outlier like Musumeci.

That particular sweep can be done no gi, so certainly has ‘connection’ to fighting.

I don’t know where the exact line is, but I know when I see people play in a way where it would be very hard to do most of that stuff with strikes.

It’s a continuum and people play jiu jitsu in ways that fall on all sorts of places along that continuum.

Idk man, it seems like a stretch to me to argue that your belt grip sweep is legit for self defense.

 

Btw if the only criterion is that it works nogi, then why do you train in the gi at all?