This is the pinnacle of the art

[Soul_Gravy]

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

…and they’d both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

I don’t recall saying they wouldn’t? But I’m sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don’t mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don’t?

My apologies then if you weren’t intentionally being rude. Sorry for being snarky.

[Soul_Gravy]

Easters - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

Ya, we should go back to 1998 where very match was a mixture of bad judo and full guard.  Sooo much better

Did you ever stop to think maybe that was better for vale tudo rules?

[Caladan]

Soul Gravy -

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

Caladan - 

Soul Gravy -

mideastgrappler - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

mideastgrappler -

Lazarus -

mideastgrappler - 

Soul Gravy - #notmyjiujitsu

#notyourjiujitsu for sure. Yours is obselete nowhere near that level. You think your jiujitsu is good but facts are, both guys have mastered fundamentals and basics at a level far beyond yours at a level you couldn't comprehend. Add in their intermediate and advanced games, they're speaking a language you don't even understand

And it still wouldn’t work with strikes, which defeats the purpose of the art as originally practised.

If you challenge them and tell them BJJ rules only, no strikes allowed, engage them, then sucker punch them since they’re under the guise that strikes aren’t allowed, then yes, they may not be as effective

 

Now if you man up and challenge them and tell them strikes allowed, grappling wise, you will probably still get your shit pushed in

 

Just like boxing…you tell them their head movement won’t work witht heir slipping and combinations…that’s true if you make them think only boxing. But now tell them kicks are allowed, you may still catch them off guard but the chances of them whooping your ass witht heir specialty skills is still highly possible

 If you are talking a sport trained guy and an elite, but just ad crappy strking…sure.

 

IMO there is so much more to training jiujitsu for fighting than just adding strikes. Competant striking, footwork, movements, controlling/pinn8ng and striking with.power&precision v flailing are very different.

 

And who cares what an elite athlete can do…what can the averge joe do with that training methodology?..is it useful, efficeint, effectivee?m

I agree with what youre saying and I get it. But, most of the people on this thread are commenting specificly about Mikey and Miyao pictured in the original post and saying stuff about their BJJ not working, and those are who I was directing my comments towards. WHen in fact, their BJJ is more than what people see when they berimbolo, invert, play lapel guards, etc. and their basics are more fundamentally sound than majority of people who train BJJ for any purpose. Their basic passes, pressure, submission holds, and takedowns are immensely powerful but people shit on that because they see them berimbolo’ing nearly everytime in elite level competition

 

I guarantee their basic armbar from closed guard or mount has immensely more details, pressure, and breaking power in it than any Rickson Gracie trained black belt who focuses on realistic “Invisible” self defense jiujitsu

I also guarantee their entry and pressure in their takedown or bodylock is just as brutal than any self defense focused BJJ practioner that does spar with live strike and clinch skills. But their timing to enter vs strikes may not be as sharp because yes, they don’t actively train those type of skills because their profession doesn’t demand it. And this opens up doors for haters to demean and undermine their amazing skills which I find extrmely unfair  

 

 

No one said they don’t have good fundamentals. But you fight the way you train, and with as much specificity as they use in their games, with a focus on competition within a very rigid ruleset and an emphasis on things like advantage points, that means they’ve gone so far beyond the practical considerations off BJJ that they’ve most likely lost sight of its use for real violence.

They spend most of their BJJ time occupying a very niche territory in a very specific way for a very specific purpose. There are a ton of other competitors and champions who have much more realistic grappling that haven’t abandoned the core tenets of the art.

…and they’d both choke you with ease under any ruleset.

I don’t recall saying they wouldn’t? But I’m sure you were very pleased with yourself when you made this post. How clever of you.

I don’t mean to be rude. Why does it matter if they train an ibjjf ruleset as long as they can choke people who don’t?

My apologies then if you weren’t intentionally being rude. Sorry for being snarky.

I started it. I forgot this was the BJJ ground and not the OG. Lol.

[Soul_Gravy]

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

[Easters]

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

[Caladan]

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

[HotSteppa]

Caladan - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I agree. I don’t care if it is streetworthy if I enjoy doing it. It’s a hobby and sport. Having said that, I cannot watch many BJJ fights as they look utterly ridiculous and I have no ambition to learn, practice, and apply modern techniques like 50/50 nonsense. I like by BJJ basic, and to the point. But I appreciate the creativity.

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Caladan -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles…even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here…do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say “all you need is sport” or “jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only” “self defense is bullshit” “go train mma if you want to how fight” and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times…why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training…I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?..I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for…weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido…in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF??? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

[ASBELTOMATO]

MTH - 

forumnewb -

Red Stuff - Michael Musumeci Jr. vs João Miyao at the 2017 World Championships

I don’t understand how those dudes don’t tap or have major injuries

I don’t either. 

I know some folks seem not to tap to toe holds in particular, but I’ve had my ankle “popped” by one applied by a strong blackbelt.  Quite loud and sudden, and immediately rotated past the range it had naturally stopped at moments before. 

Didn’t hurt while the hold was applied or even when it “popped.”  It hurt later that day though, and swelled up on the side.  It was sensitive for months thereafter whenever I had to sit over it (rolling up to combat base, etc.) or someone attempted any type of ankle attack.

My takeaway on toe holds is a bit like what everyone says about heel hooks–you don’t know they’re about to cause damage until they cause it.  

These guys (especially the Miyaos) seem to let their limbs get shredded rather than tap.  It’s crazy.

I remember rolling with this guy at Rey Diogo's, and this guy put me in a toe hold, and it didn't hurt, so I didn't tap, and Rey looked at me and said you better tap, and he meant it, so I tapped. 

I had never trained with them at Rickson's, so I didn't know you don't get a pain warning.

[Sgt._Slaphead]

HotSteppa -

Caladan - 

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I agree. I don’t care if it is streetworthy if I enjoy doing it. It’s a hobby and sport. Having said that, I cannot watch many BJJ fights as they look utterly ridiculous and I have no ambition to learn, practice, and apply modern techniques like 50/50 nonsense. I like by BJJ basic, and to the point. But I appreciate the creativity.

jiujitsu at its “basic” pressure oriented foundations are a excellent base of skill which has much defensive applicability…so not caring about SD as a priority still has benefit. AND IS FUN TOO!

 

If.i not having fun why would i do this shit for so long?

[Caladan]

Sgt. Slaphead -

Caladan -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles…even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here…do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say “all you need is sport” or “jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only” “self defense is bullshit” “go train mma if you want to how fight” and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times…why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training…I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?..I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for…weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido…in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF??? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

So is your only beef with schools who advertise self defense but don’t teach self defense then?

 

Just being honest, I really think some of you old timers underestimate the new school guys. You “LMFAO” at Musumeci on the first page of this thread. That guy is a pure outlier. Multiple time mundial (gi and nogi) champion and arguably the best American competitor ever. Idk where any of you guys train, but chances are he’s several levels above anyone that most of us have ever met before. He beats literally everyone. 

[Easters]

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Dude, you’re overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don’t compete don’t get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That’s just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don’t all those guys’ students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can’t.  It might drive you crazy that an “old school smash pass” style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that’s life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn’t all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90’s with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the “average Joe” that a modern-day competitor couldn’t.  That’s fair, but I don’t think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the “guard” has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90’s.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

[Easters]

And it needs to be said on this forum before it dies away - if you don't fight MMA and you're so concerned with street fights that you ignore modern innovation in your sport of choice - SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU!  At the risk of sounding insensitive, it's borderline paranoia.  Yes, we all should be compitent at self defense but after a certain point it's simply overkill.  Might as well have fun

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Caladan -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Caladan -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Serious question…what if they don’t care? I mean seriously, I’m a purple belt at a school that is mostly sport jiu jitsu focused. I’m not worried about myself in a street situation because I’ve trained martial arts for almost a decade but let’s pretend my training is worthless like you seem to think…I’m mid 30s and live in an upper middle class area and don’t ever really put myself in a situation where a self defense situation is realistic. I enjoy gi jiu jitsu, working collar sleeve, even dabble in lapel guard. Its just what I enjoy. Its a conscious choice on my part. Even if there was a 0% correlation with “fighting” I would still do what I do. (I still think some of you guys VASTLY overestimate how closely related your jiu jitsu is to fighting, but whatevs).

I fuck-about most of my training time. I do oldschool sleeve and lapel mostly in guard. I turtle and give my back and go to disadvatageos positions m9stly so i can rep working in worst case positions. I train gi judo tachiwaza mostly in standup. I train for shits&giggles…even moreso nowad.ays.

 

ive stated many times here…do whatever the fuck. But asshats want to say “all you need is sport” or “jiujtsud is a ground grappling sport only” “self defense is bullshit” “go train mma if you want to how fight” and other stupidity. And Ive asked the question many times…why do all these schools advertise SD if all they develop sport vrap? That is bullshit.

As for.overestimating my training…I know I can strike, clinch, throw and run a person into/over or through almost anything i choose. How do i know?..I train it. Ive be punched, kicked, hit with hard trainingimpact and edged weapons, electric knives, slammed i to walls etc. So when a sport only guys spouts fucking nonsense about something they never trained for…weeeeeeell.

 

I dont bitch about aikido…in fact I praise some of it. But if somebody says aikido training is functional and directly applicable to SD then I have to say WTF??? I can say thesame for jiujitsu because I seen it enough and how peole train, and feedback I get from peolle who are far better at it than I will ever be.

 

So is your only beef with schools who advertise self defense but don’t teach self defense then?

 

Just being honest, I really think some of you old timers underestimate the new school guys. You “LMFAO” at Musumeci on the first page of this thread. That guy is a pure outlier. Multiple time mundial (gi and nogi) champion and arguably the best American competitor ever. Idk where any of you guys train, but chances are he’s several levels above anyone that most of us have ever met before. He beats literally everyone. 

My beef is sport defining jiujitsu…and yes, jiujitsu is marketed not as a sport only, but as SD. How is that ethical? I’ve seen a black belt teaching NONSENSE as SD…and couldnt even perform a competant osoto or ogoshi, enter against striking or some fuckery knife defensee.

 

NO SHIT he’d beat us all…in a sport match. It’s a little arrogant to thik he could wreck everybodys ass i a fight…does he train to fight? I don’t know anything about him, and dont care. Again…why should the average jiujitsu practitioner care what an elite level jiujitsu athlete can do and why should that define jiujitsu? Someone stated previously about how he’d choke out everyone in a fight…LOL! Well how about he go jump in the UFC with his skillset???

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Easters -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Dude, you’re overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don’t compete don’t get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That’s just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don’t all those guys’ students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can’t.  It might drive you crazy that an “old school smash pass” style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that’s life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn’t all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90’s with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the “average Joe” that a modern-day competitor couldn’t.  That’s fair, but I don’t think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the “guard” has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90’s.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

“Dn’t get to critisize…” WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO!!! You think only some fuck who bumble-fucks around on a mat and calls it a “fight” and collect trinkets are the only ones who have valid opinion??? I paid my fucking dues, with 2 ACL injuries and a surgery, Mullitple labrum repairs, no MCL a shattered tooth up through my root requrng a root canal, blown neck disc and numerous other injuries.

 

None of that “drives me crazy” IDGAF what people do…if all they do is monkey-fuck I know how they would react outside of their specialized arena. It is not a question of whose techniques are better…no shit an elite is going to have better…WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF TRAINING THAT DEFINES WHAT IS BETTER FOR APPLICATION! Is a Service Rifle or F-class champion a sniper? Is a 3gun championi a specops troop?

 

The point about the industry is that has become the driving force behind jiujitsu…sport, trinkets, tounaments, training, etc…all pushing student into spending money to learn the latest and greatest, train with a champion, join the winning team…SAME NONSENSE AS ANY OTHER MA. And as sport beomes the focus and driving force…it defines the style and training.

[Sgt._Slaphead]

Easters -

And it needs to be said on this forum before it dies away - if you don't fight MMA and you're so concerned with street fights that you ignore modern innovation in your sport of choice - SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU!  At the risk of sounding insensitive, it's borderline paranoia.  Yes, we all should be compitent at self defense but after a certain point it's simply overkill.  Might as well have fun

So only people who "fight MMA" can be concerned about defense!?!?

 

WTF did I just state previously about "fun" and how I train?

[Easters]

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Sgt. Slaphead -

Easters -

Soul Gravy -

Easters - 

I like to think of the old vs. new school debate like this:

 

you can learn from two groups of people.  The first is the old guard who thinks the old way is right and are sticking with it.  Think perhaps your Roylers, Ricksons, maybe a Carlson jr.  The top notch of the 90s.

 

or you could learn from the old guard who evolved with the modern day.  Guys like Jacare, Fabio gurgel, Draculino, megaton.  These guys are masters of the old school but recognize that Jiu Jitsu is getting better, not worse.  They're not afraid of showing up to tournaments.  They're learning in Jiu Jitsu evolves over multiple decades not just one.  They recognize they don't have all the answers and continue to learn.  I know who I'd rather learn from 

Gurgel, Draculino and Megaton are still all old school guys. As are Sperry, Busta, Wallid, Margarida, Gordo, Terere, Telles, the Machados, Nino Elvis, Pe de Pano, the Nogs, Allan Goes, Soneca, Liborio and Tinguinha. There was plenty of innovation and evolution back then, and most of them had at least one MMA fight.

The idea that Royce’s appearances in the early UFCs and his almost dogmatic insistence on closed guard constitutes the ideology and extent of the old school is erroneous.

The problem is not that BJJ is evolving, it is the ruleset under which this evolution is occurring.

Not sure how your post even relates to what I said.

 

and exactly what rules are removing Jiu Jitsu from fighting?  Should we go to all no gi sub only with heel hooks where every match is a butt scoring foot fest?

If competition is 5he focus of training, the rules that define it, influence training objectives and methods…this is undeniable.

Training time is finite, if one seeks success in competition, efficiency require training to focus on what needs to be done under the environmental factors and rules. Youxre not gonna train gi ibjjfstyle when your next comp is ebi no gi.

Who care what some elite can do…what can the average joe do UNDER THAT TRAINING METHODOLOGY? How adaptable are they if they are stuck in that training environment, and what broader applicability does it have for the student’s life outside of competition? Really, who/what is served by such a specialized trainijg method?..the student or the industry of jiujitsu? I say the industry…look at how much money is thrown around.

 

LOL@jiujitsu, it’s a lif…INDUSTRY!

 

Look at shen…he defines the average joe! With his physical build and what seems to me, avg physical attributes. I’d pay way more attention to what he would show then what keenan, miyaos or mendes do. They have almost zero of interest to me. Jiujitsu used to be about the developing skills that mostly were attainable by the average person with average attributes. Why should we care ab out what a gumby or roidfreak athlete can do???

 

 

Dude, you’re overthinking this way too much.  People can train with whoever they want and at whatever intensity they want.  BUT the people who don’t compete don’t get to criticize the modern day competitors who are light years ahead of the old guard.  That’s just petty, a bunch of guys who never compete and justify it by saying they hate the ruleset and their jiu jitsu is better for fighting.  Like I said in a previous post, where are all these old school guys who dominated MMA?  If old school jiu jitsu is so much better, why don’t all those guys’ students go and dominate some tournaments?  The tough truth is that they can’t.  It might drive you crazy that an “old school smash pass” style is ineffective against a really good spider guard, but that’s life.  And like I said before, smash passing is FAR more advanced now than it was 20 years ago.  People didn’t all of the sudden forget what pressure is.  People love to hate on the Miyaos and Mendes Bros.  Somebody show me a featherweight from the 90’s with better top game than any of them.  PLEASE.  

Shen seems like a great instructor, who surely offers things to the “average Joe” that a modern-day competitor couldn’t.  That’s fair, but I don’t think Shen has any delusions that his school is pumping out guys that are more street ready than a competition school.  Competition breeds innovation and physical excellence.  Not everybody has to train like a competitor but everybody should acknowledge that competitors are better than hobbyists, no matter if the hobbyist thinks his techniques are more effective.  

And the whole industry thing is a bit weird.  Is football worse off because the NFL exists?  I think most would say the opposite.  Structured competition promotes innovation.  You can disagree but the “guard” has gotten way more complex and effective because of competition.  Sweeps are still worth two points like they were in the 90’s.  Guard passing has become far more technical because of competition, etc.  Yes the IBJJF makes money, but are you hoping for some magical nonprofit to pop up with a perfect rule set that can put on 6 tournaments across the globe each weekend?  

“Dn’t get to critisize…” WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN DO!!! You think only some fuck who bumble-fucks around on a mat and calls it a “fight” and collect trinkets are the only ones who have valid opinion??? I paid my fucking dues, with 2 ACL injuries and a surgery, Mullitple labrum repairs, no MCL a shattered tooth up through my root requrng a root canal, blown neck disc and numerous other injuries.

 

None of that “drives me crazy” IDGAF what people do…if all they do is monkey-fuck I know how they would react outside of their specialized arena. It is not a question of whose techniques are better…no shit an elite is going to have better…WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF TRAINING THAT DEFINES WHAT IS BETTER FOR APPLICATION! Is a Service Rifle or F-class champion a sniper? Is a 3gun championi a specops troop?

 

The point about the industry is that has become the driving force behind jiujitsu…sport, trinkets, tounaments, training, etc…all pushing student into spending money to learn the latest and greatest, train with a champion, join the winning team…SAME NONSENSE AS ANY OTHER MA. And as sport beomes the focus and driving force…it defines the style and training.

So since you’re a hobbyist who’s body is all jacked up you get to shit on world champions from your computer, with making no real points other than making fun of how it looks?  Ok dude.  Have fun with that.

why are you so confident your Jiu Jitsu would hold up so much better in the street?  Are you some master of ground and pound or something?  Do you think these guys don’t know how to double under pass or play full guard?  You don’t have any secrets man.  I’m willing to bet it wouldn’t take too long for them to impliment some strikes into their game to make your argument more of a failure than it already is.  Or are you now gonna say it’s all about eye gouges slamming, and biting?  I’m sure you train a toooooon of that

[Sgt._Slaphead]

You tell us to STFU and we cant have opinions on something we've been doing for a long ass time? LMAO! We earned the right to say WTF we want. And yes, much of what is seen in sport looks rediculous...but is that my point?

 

I think my jiujitsu is better within the context of fighting or SD because I train that as my foundation AND the feedback I have from people I have trained a little who have had to use those skills in a fight or defensive context.

 

LOL! you think adding some striking, doble under pass and full guard is the extent of makkinig sport jiujitsu better suited to fighitn application

[Aaron_Lapointe]

Bottom line is you train what you want to train and recognize your limitations. There is simply not enough time in the day, week, or year to train everything. Ultimately, mat time through sparring is what's most important. That's how you develop true body awareness and muscle memory. Once you have those things down and start to truly understand jiu-jitsu you can make necessary adjustments. Think of it like playing the guitar. A good guitarist no longer needs to know a particular song to make beautiful music and even the best guitarist may not be the best when it comes to playing a specific song. For example, would you want Eric Clapton or Kirk Hammett playing Master of Puppets.