I had heard that a lot of the fighters didn't put in the hooks for fear of ankle locks. Crossing the ankle with shoes on was sure fire suicide (cross ankle lock), even one hook in could get shin locked pretty easy with shoes on. I know from experience that leg locks with shoes on are REALLY easy to get caught in.
I remember seeing Ken fight Hume on one of my old tapes. It was pretty obvious that Ken was dragging the fight out instead of just submitting Hume quick. He was doing all kinds of pro wrestling throws and takedowns on hume, while Hume was swinging for the fences. Big difference in size and experience back then.
I remember Kens fight with Minoru Suzuki looked fake as hell. This was right before the UFC. Ken had suzuki in an extended armbar, had it tight, then you see his legs relax, suzuki spins out and kneebars Ken. At the time, it was thought that they didn't want their champ to fight in the UFC and make them look bad if he lost, so Ken dropped the title. It definitely looked like he dropped it on purpose.
I really loved the old Pancrase fights, they were fast paced, and you could usually see the fake ones pretty easily.
Ken was really a beast in pancrase. When he lost to Royce, he really did lose it though. He quit going for submissions like he did in pancrase. Made for some boring fights, and made him lose some fights he should've won.
knuckleballs - Can someone answer these questions:
1. How did Hume get fucked over against Suzuki? Did he have point deductions or something?
2. Was the first match in part 2 an injury fill in match?
3. Why was the guy in the kangaroo speedos no wearing shin guards and kneepads?
4. Were the shinguards and kneepads optional? If so, why were people wearing them?
5. Why did the shamrocks - as well as the others - not punch to the body on the ground?
6. When and why did pancrase start fixing fights?
Cheers, ya'all.
William did a great job answering them above. I will add a little.
1. Hume didn't get fucked over, he used an escape after Suzuki leg locked him which resulted in a lost point. Since it went to decision, the fighter with more lost points loses automatically. If lost points are equal, or nobody loses a point, then a decision is rendered.
2. No, it was a fight that was not a part of the tournament used to fill the card. Pancrase was extremely concerned with crowd entertainment and show length and they wanted to make sure that the show was long enough.
3/4. From what I understand if a fighter wanted to kick/knee they had to wear protection, so it wasn't manditory for them to use the shinpads and kneepads but you would not be able to kick or knee without them.
5. William nailed this one in his post.
6. William also nailed this one. I'll add:
The amount of works in Pancrase was very small and sometimes was more a case of one fighter "putting over" the other fighter without the other guy necessarily knowing or being in on it. For instance, Pancrase was constantly on Ken Shamrock to "put over" other top fighters because they were horrified of their best fighter losing in the UFC, where Ken regularly fought, and making Pancrase look inferior or weak.
All of Ken's losses in Pancrase were almost certainly instances of Ken "putting over" his opponent in response to Pancrase pressuring him to do so out of fear of their organization looking inferior. Look at it: Ken loses at UFC 1, immediately loses in Pancrase to top fighter Suzuki (and co-creator) shortly after. Ken is scheduled to fight at UFC 3, loses to top fighter (and co-creator) Funaki eight days before UFC 3 as a safety net for Pancrase if Ken somehow lost at UFC 3. Ken is scheduled to fight Dan Severn (an unpopular pro wrestler in Japan), Ken loses to Suzuki immediately prior to the event. This fight was especially terrifying for Pancrase because of Severn's poor stint as a pro wrestler in Japan. If their best fighter lost to Severn they would be overwhelmed with embarrassment and did everything to avoid it. Pancrase even asked Ken to lose to Bas Rutten on purpose in his first KOP title defense because they were afraid he would lose to Royce Gracie again at UFC 5.
Pancrase was terrified of having their top fighter lose in other organizations. This is part of the reason why Dana White refuses to co-promote in the post PRIDE era. Dana's "the best fighters are in the UFC, if you aren't in the UFC you aren't fighting the best" line would blow up in his face if his fighters somehow lost in another promotion. It's just not smart business decision to co-promote when your organization is on top.
As for the other works, Pancrase was extremely concerned with the show being long and entertaining so that fans would feel they got their money's worth. Ken's fight with Hume is a perfect example of this. This also led into the idea of the top guys "carrying" inferior opponents during fights. Funaki, Suzuki and Ken would lengthen matches and give inferior opponents opportunites to make the fights competitive before finally finishing them, soley for crowd entertainment and growth of the sport. Fans sometimes mistake this for "working" fights, which is not the case. The outcomes are still real and unplanned.
Pro Ice should have a billion votes up! 
Funaki, like Ken, also "put over" opponents in Pancrase. He almost certainly did this with Yuki Kondo and Frank Shamrock to build them into stars for the promotion. Funaki was the greatest fighter in Pancrase during the post Ken era and a win over Funaki would skyrocket that person in the minds of fans, who viewed Funaki as the hero and golden boy.
These fights weren't traditional "works", as Kondo and Frank weren't in on them.
You also need to be careful when trying to evaluate Funaki's skill as a fighter by watching his fights. Funaki very often carried his opponents and made himself look very unskilled at times to allow his opponent to stay competitive to make the show more entertaining. Do not be fooled, though. Funaki was so much better than everybody else that he could get away with this and still win easily. Funaki's skill was unparalleled in Japan at the time.
Fabes -Pro Ice should have a billion votes up!
We'll get there, it's onward and upward from here!
thanks a lot
Funaki Masakatsu #1 -knuckleballs - Can someone answer these questions:
1. How did Hume get fucked over against Suzuki? Did he have point deductions or something?
2. Was the first match in part 2 an injury fill in match?
3. Why was the guy in the kangaroo speedos no wearing shin guards and kneepads?
4. Were the shinguards and kneepads optional? If so, why were people wearing them?
5. Why did the shamrocks - as well as the others - not punch to the body on the ground?
6. When and why did pancrase start fixing fights?
Cheers, ya'all.
William did a great job answering them above. I will add a little.
1. Hume didn't get fucked over, he used an escape after Suzuki leg locked him which resulted in a lost point. Since it went to decision, the fighter with more lost points loses automatically. If lost points are equal, or nobody loses a point, then a decision is rendered.
2. No, it was a fight that was not a part of the tournament used to fill the card. Pancrase was extremely concerned with crowd entertainment and show length and they wanted to make sure that the show was long enough.
3/4. From what I understand if a fighter wanted to kick/knee they had to wear protection, so it wasn't manditory for them to use the shinpads and kneepads but you would not be able to kick or knee without them.
5. William nailed this one in his post.
6. William also nailed this one. I'll add:
The amount of works in Pancrase was very small and sometimes was more a case of one fighter "putting over" the other fighter without the other guy necessarily knowing or being in on it. For instance, Pancrase was constantly on Ken Shamrock to "put over" other top fighters because they were horrified of their best fighter losing in the UFC, where Ken regularly fought, and making Pancrase look inferior or weak.
All of Ken's losses in Pancrase were almost certainly instances of Ken "putting over" his opponent in response to Pancrase pressuring him to do so out of fear of their organization looking inferior. Look at it: Ken loses at UFC 1, immediately loses in Pancrase to top fighter Suzuki (and co-creator) shortly after. Ken is scheduled to fight at UFC 3, loses to top fighter (and co-creator) Funaki eight days before UFC 3 as a safety net for Pancrase if Ken somehow lost at UFC 3. Ken is scheduled to fight Dan Severn (an unpopular pro wrestler in Japan), Ken loses to Suzuki immediately prior to the event. This fight was especially terrifying for Pancrase because of Severn's poor stint as a pro wrestler in Japan. If their best fighter lost to Severn they would be overwhelmed with embarrassment and did everything to avoid it. Pancrase even asked Ken to lose to Bas Rutten on purpose in his first KOP title defense because they were afraid he would lose to Royce Gracie again at UFC 5.
Pancrase was terrified of having their top fighter lose in other organizations. This is part of the reason why Dana White refuses to co-promote in the post PRIDE era. Dana's "the best fighters are in the UFC, if you aren't in the UFC you aren't fighting the best" line would blow up in his face if his fighters somehow lost in another promotion. It's just not smart business decision to co-promote when your organization is on top.
As for the other works, Pancrase was extremely concerned with the show being long and entertaining so that fans would feel they got their money's worth. Ken's fight with Hume is a perfect example of this. This also led into the idea of the top guys "carrying" inferior opponents during fights. Funaki, Suzuki and Ken would lengthen matches and give inferior opponents opportunites to make the fights competitive before finally finishing them, soley for crowd entertainment and growth of the sport. Fans sometimes mistake this for "working" fights, which is not the case. The outcomes are still real and unplanned.
It's great to be able to get answers to my questions; i feel like i am around PHDs in MMA history on this site. Thanks, Funaki-san.
^ The best thing about this place. lots of combat sport knowledge here
Thanks Bill and # 1 for the great posts!
William Colosimo - Anytime man, thanks for posting cool fights
Ditto!
This is one of my favorite events ever!
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knuckleballs - Can someone answer these questions:
1. How did Hume get fucked over against Suzuki? Did he have point deductions or something?
2. Was the first match in part 2 an injury fill in match?
3. Why was the guy in the kangaroo speedos no wearing shin guards and kneepads?
4. Were the shinguards and kneepads optional? If so, why were people wearing them?
5. Why did the shamrocks - as well as the others - not punch to the body on the ground?
6. When and why did pancrase start fixing fights?
Cheers, ya'all.
Looks like your questions have been answered.
I'll just add - All of Ken's losses in Pancrase were works. That was the only way they could get him to lose. There was nobody in Pancrase at the time that would beat Ken, not even guys like Funaki and Bas. Ken was that dominant.
Voted up Pro Ice - because it's been a while.
Also voted up Funaki Masakatsu #1 and William Colosimo.
Great to see you posting onepunchjd!
Thanks.
Few and far between lately.
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I knew onepunch would find this thread one day
Good to see you around my friend
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