Eh_J - I've only been training in BJJ for about 6 weeks or so. I have a bit of a background in judo and wrestling so I like to think that I'm picking it up pretty quick.
Last roll of the class, and I hook up with this blue belt. I definitely outweighed him, but not by too much.
Anyhow, I am fortunate enough to hit a sweep and end up in side control on his right side. I snake my left hand above his left shoulder and then under his neck. I start moving to north south. I don't have the choke in properly, but I am kinda face crushing with my chest and lifting under his neck so he is definitely in some pain.
I end up getting a better choke grip and I know I have him, but he won't tap. I keep going gradually and slowly tighter, waiting for him to tap, and he still won't. He is also making no effort to escape. Finally, he taps, but instead of tapping normally, he slaps me really fucking hard in the back of the neck several times. I let him go, and he keeps hitting me.
He gets out and starts screaming at me for 'crushing his teeth'. The instructor came right over and gave HIM shit for acting like that. According to everyone else, it isn't the first time this guy has pulled something like this and he was probably just pissed about being tapped by a lowly whitey like me.
Bottom line is that I still have no concept about proper BJJ etiquette. I certainly wasn't trying to do anything wrong.... So was I wrong here? Should I have done something differently?
PS
FRAT.
Couple questions, 1)What would you estimate the weight difference to be?
2)What sweep did you use?
3)Have you rolled with this particular fellow before in class? If so how did it go?
1) 15 pounds, give or take a few.
2) scissor sweep, but he snuck a leg in to get to half guard, then I passed his half guard into side control.
I havn't read the whole thread but IF you were deliberately applying pressure on his face/teeth to obtain a submission through pain(i.e. not a choke that would put him to sleep) then it is a dick move.
The reasoning being that it isn't a finishing move and in a real competative setting no one would tap to something that merely causes pain/hurts teeth. In class however someone might exercise the prudence to tap and save themselves from some damaged teeth or cuts in their mouth even though it's not a legit submission.
The guys saying "a tap is a tap"(havn't read thread but there are bound to be some) are tards because the whole point of training is to improve technique not obtain "taps" that give you a false sense of your actual abilities in a competative setting. The whole point is that all taps are not equal- if the guy is tapping from some temporary pain you aren't applying an effective submission you are just annoying people and causing unnecessary teeth damage.
Obviously, this is all dependant on you cranking on the face/jaw and not applying a legit choke it's very possible that the guy was just a bit bitter.
I'm just trying to learn... I definitely don't want to get a reputation in class as someone who uses moves that are outside proper etiquette. It seems like that particular technique is frowned on by a percentage of BJJers, so it is probably something that I will stay away from until I can be sure that I'm doing it properly.
HereWeAre - But in my opinion the face smash to get a tap is not a legit move and the point of training is to practice legit technique. If you are putting pressure on his head to keep his head turned away so he can't shrimp then that is different.
What about putting pressure on his face/jaw to force the guy to lift his chin so you can finish the choke? "Legit move," or no?
Not really but done in moderation it's not too annoying. There are people who get chokes in on me without smashing my face on a regular basis.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Now, if you're just smashing your training partner's face indiscriminantly at every opportunity, yeah, you're an asshole. But if you're going for a choke, and the guy's chin is the in way, why on earth would there be anything wrong with gradually applying the pressure as you normally would?
HereWeAre - But I'm not the type to complain. I don't get mad I just get even.
OK, I'm going to walk through this to see if I understand what you're saying. Let's say you and I are rolling. I take your back and go for a RNC, but I can't sink it in because your chin is glued to your chest. I've got the grip fully locked around your neck, though, so I apply slow, controlled pressure across your jaw. Or, alternatively, I use the blade of my forearm on the side of your chin to create pressure to force you to turn your head and allow me to slip the choke across your neck, again using slow, controlled pressure.
Are you saying that after this happens and we start rolling again, you're going to deliberately attempt to get me in some sort of "face smash" position not for the purpose of setting up a "legit technique" like a choke, but just to "get even" with me? Because if so, THAT sounds like pretty poor etiquette, IMO.
Eh_J - I'm just trying to learn... I definitely don't want to get a reputation in class as someone who uses moves that are outside proper etiquette. It seems like that particular technique is frowned on by a percentage of BJJers, so it is probably something that I will stay away from until I can be sure that I'm doing it properly.
You have to bear in mind it's you that loses out if you really are obtaining submissions through pain only. Most guys you roll with aren't going to be like he was, they will probably just tap to save their teeth and restart- but how is that making you any better?
The reason they tapped is because you applied some pain to their teeth and they didn't want a bloody mouth, not because you actually applied a fight ending submission. When you think about it, you can probably see why it's frowned upon for your sake rather than theirs. Transpose that into a comp or even moreso an MMA fight and that shit won't work, because it isn't actually a submission. Getting someone to tap to save some tooth pain isn't making you any better, it's just kind of annoying. You are putting someone in a position where they can resist indefinately but suffer some annoying teeth problems, or tap and lose the chance to work whatever position you were doing(or, for the more ego centred, give you the false idea that you "submitted" them and reenforce your habits).
Again, I'm not saying you were doing that and the guy's reaction was unusual, but i'm just explaining for the benefit of "a tap is a tap" retards.
"I've got the grip fully locked around your neck, though, so I apply slow, controlled pressure across your jaw. Or, alternatively, I use the blade of my forearm on the side of your chin to create pressure to force you to turn your head and allow me to slip the choke across your neck, again using slow, controlled pressure."
IMO(and if I understand what you are saying correctly:
Scenario 1: bit of a dick
Scenario 2: OK
If you are trying to cause your opponent pain in the teeth/mouth area you aren't applying a submission at all. It won't put them to sleep and it won't work against a determined opponent in a comp(plus, a gumshield mitigates it anyway). When they are tapping, they aren't saying "you subbed me", they are saying "I can't be bothered with some cuts in my mouth or minor dental damage". It kind of implies you are far more bothered about obtaining "taps" to reinforce your ego than actually get better.
I can't see a problem with making your opponent uncomfortable in hunting for a submission.
billy914 - "I've got the grip fully locked around your neck, though, so I apply slow, controlled pressure across your jaw. Or, alternatively, I use the blade of my forearm on the side of your chin to create pressure to force you to turn your head and allow me to slip the choke across your neck, again using slow, controlled pressure."
IMO(and if I understand what you are saying correctly:
Scenario 1: bit of a dick
Scenario 2: OK
If you are trying to cause your opponent pain in the teeth/mouth area you aren't applying a submission at all. It won't put them to sleep and it won't work against a determined opponent in a comp(plus, a gumshield mitigates it anyway). When they are tapping, they aren't saying "you subbed me", they are saying "I can't be bothered with some cuts in my mouth or minor dental damage". It kind of implies you are far more bothered about obtaining "taps" to reinforce your ego than actually get better.
I can't see a problem with making your opponent uncomfortable in hunting for a submission.
This.
If it's training I will apply pressure but if I have to do a dick move to get a submission most of the time I will try a different submission. It's all about developing your technique in training and not counting how many times you tap someone.
HereWeAre - If it's training I will apply pressure but if I have to do a dick move to get a submission most of the time I will try a different submission. It's all about developing your technique in training and not counting how many times you tap someone.
Now this, I agree with. I think we need to be careful about overlooking the distinction between (1) attempting a choke which your training partner blocks with his chin/teeth, and (2) deliberately trying to get your training partners to tap by squeezing the shit out of their jaw.
Scenario #2 is obviously an example of poor training etiquette, but I'm hard-pressed to see anything wrong with applying pressure to make scenario #1 extremely uncomfortable for your partner in order to set up an opening to finish the choke.
Eh_J - I've only been training in BJJ for about 6 weeks or so. I have a bit of a background in judo and wrestling so I like to think that I'm picking it up pretty quick.
Last roll of the class, and I hook up with this blue belt. I definitely outweighed him, but not by too much.
Anyhow, I am fortunate enough to hit a sweep and end up in side control on his right side. I snake my left hand above his left shoulder and then under his neck. I start moving to north south. I don't have the choke in properly, but I am kinda face crushing with my chest and lifting under his neck so he is definitely in some pain.
I end up getting a better choke grip and I know I have him, but he won't tap. I keep going gradually and slowly tighter, waiting for him to tap, and he still won't. He is also making no effort to escape. Finally, he taps, but instead of tapping normally, he slaps me really fucking hard in the back of the neck several times. I let him go, and he keeps hitting me.
He gets out and starts screaming at me for 'crushing his teeth'. The instructor came right over and gave HIM shit for acting like that. According to everyone else, it isn't the first time this guy has pulled something like this and he was probably just pissed about being tapped by a lowly whitey like me.
Bottom line is that I still have no concept about proper BJJ etiquette. I certainly wasn't trying to do anything wrong.... So was I wrong here? Should I have done something differently?
PS
FRAT.
Couple questions, 1)What would you estimate the weight difference to be? 2)What sweep did you use? 3)Have you rolled with this particular fellow before in class? If so how did it go?
1) 15 pounds, give or take a few. 2) scissor sweep, but he snuck a leg in to get to half guard, then I passed his half guard into side control. 3) never rolled with him before
I asked to see what sort of mind set he was having, seems to me it was outright embarassment he got swept and tapped with 1st day stuff (scissors sweep if often the first thing we all learn). To me, if you were trying a north south choke, it was on him to defend. The only way he could get his teeth mushed, if for him to put himself in that postiion, not your fault. Had you taken his label and tried to cut his head in half, thats one thing, but north south, he has to put his face in the bad spot to take any mashing. He was a prima donna blue, nothing more. Given the instructor's reaction, I am sure he was watching enough to know you were right, and he was wrong. Wouldnt worry about it.
I will tap to something like a guillotine if it's across my face and ears, but not cutting off air or blood, yet I can't escape - often the guys who love guillotines also like to hold onto them when it's clear they aren't going to work. I don't like to sit there for the next 3 minutes until their arms get tired, and my ears blow up. OP is a similar situation.
That is fucking retarded! At my University they had a BJJ club, but that this little disclaimer about how certain things werent allowed (i.e. neck cranks, leg locks, etc.). Fuck that shit (although I didnt have health insurance so that is the main reason I didnt train there-I didnt want to risk a broken bone and then be in debt for thousands due to medical expenses ON TOP of my student debt, but...) I think that shiz is gay as fuck.
During my grappling days (at Miletich's) I was 160ish and NEVER lifted weights (Im WAY bigger and stronger now, it would be far more fun to be grappling, but I havent since then :/), I didnt start lifting until after I quit there, so...I was one of the smallest guys there and not that strong.
I would grapple with absolute brutes (atleast compared to me at the time) that would neck crank me, shove me off if I had them mounted, etc. etc. During that time I was a HUGE fan of the ankle lock/leg locks in general and constantly went for them (mainly ankle though). Noone ever bitched about that, and only Pat once told a guy to tap because I had him in a heel hook and he was worried that he would get hurt since he was being stubborn.
Its not ballet, and if a school is going to ban (or someone gets pussy hurt) over something like a neck crank or a guy inflicting as much pain as possible (ie driving shoulder into jaw while having crossbody) given his current position, then that is ridiculous.
If you cant handle that then GTFO. You cant handle that imagine stepping into a Boxing or Muay Thai gym and being hit full contact.
My opinion though.
I agree that it is a rough sport and if you sign up you may get beat up (somewhat). The one thing I cant stand are necks cranks, they are so fucking ghetto, require no technique and actually hinder the learning curve.
Learn to pass my guard, don't try to crank my neck and if you do you had better hope that I don't get one of your limbs or else I will crank back...
The Blue belt obviously has issues, but no reason for you to really bust out the prick moves when it's your first time rolling with someone. I can see how it would piss someone off when someone they've never rolled with starts crushing their face. First time rolling with someone, I always flow really easy to see how they react. If you're really trying to improve, giving up positions and submissions to a spaz shouldn't be a big deal as you can always work your escapes and try different things against them.
It always sucks when you have people rolling like it's life or death. Most of us are there to learn and you can't improve or get better when you're on the sideline from injuries. You also don't want to be a dick to other people there, because that will just mean less training partners to roll with.
Sounds to me like an ego problem. Hell, if a n00b got me in that position I'd likely give up the choke fairly easily so they get a chance to work the technique. But, without being there it's just going to be a bunch of us back seat drivers going back and forth assuming what was going on and transposing that onto our gym's norms
dont think u intentionally did any harm but a face crush is not a legid sub in practice.U should adjust and get clean north-south choke or whatever choke but make sure if possible to get it under neck If u see u have a cross face crush or whatever Id let it go and try to get clean choke