Im no boxing expert. Let me start off with that.
I havent watched that many of Floyd's past fights. I appreciate his technique and mastery of the boxing game but dont think its a crime to want to see more output from the greats. Being a Pac fan but hopefully an object fan of the sport, was never a fan of Floyds mouth but can take that like any other, PR. I do think he has been somewhat selective in his fights and not being in any big rush to step up against the big comp but after seeing him dismantle Shane on Sat night, I am a fan.
His form, his accuracy, his speed.....just masterful. He's never out of position, he was countering on Shane the moment, Shane tried anything. It was like clockwork. I couldnt believe how dominant Floyd was.
Was it a case of Shane just being too old or Floyd being that good? Its prob one of those fights where we'll never know and may just have to say, a bit of both? It did look like Shane still had the mojo and tempo but that he could not get into form, and breakdown Floyd's game. He seemed to resort to sloppy offensives that left him vulernable and his punches did seem uncrisp. This probably had more to do with Floyd than anything though.
I also think that though a more "meaner" or aggressive fighter like Hagler or Hearns or whomever Steward mentioned would have finished Shane, i think for the most part, Floyd's output was enough. He didnt close out that strong but he blasted Shane over and over. I guess like Steward said, Floyd just does not throw in combination to really bring the pain. I did feel disappointed in the fight but it was more due to Shane's inability to get anything off at all. I believe he tried but just couldnt.
I do have to lol on Floyd's haters on here though. Some of the most riduculous threads are being made in response but its not anything we havent seen about any fighter before.
Love or hate him, i dont think any real boxing fan cannot give Floyd respect after that showing.
On to Floyd vs Pac:
The terms: I think Floyd put it fairly enough in his post fight interview. He just reiterated his terms and didnt push it much further and didnt act like an ass in doing so.
To me, it seems 2 fold: To ask for stricter testing measures is not a bad thing in itself but I also think it should not be up to one side to dictate the terms either esp when it diverges so much from official protocol.
Yes, current official protocol may not be up to par but i dont think its up to one side to say "hey, we do it my way or the highway." There has to be some middle ground.
What Im still wondering is that if there are any substances that can have any real impact within say this 14 day period and when Pac is apparently willing to give a blood sample immediately after the fight. Im not even sure what both sides agreed to but how is Floyd's side determing these time frames?
The style battle: After seeing Floyd dismantle Shane, its tough to pick anyone over Floyd. But Manny is in his prime, Shane is not. All of them are fast: Manny, Floyd and Shane. It seemed Floyd exploited the fact that Shane is not a boxer boxer and Manny is not one either, correct? However, Manny's speed and power is still in tact and its often his unorthodox tempo and angles that catches people, the punches you dont see coming. Floyd however has prob the best ability to see punches coming and get out of the way.
Either way, it still comes down to the best defensive boxer vs best offensive boxer so on that regard alone, who wouldnt wanna see that fight?
Floyd really is that good, but also, Shane looked like shit. Emmanuel Steward was saying it immediately in round one, that he looked tentative, twitchy, and tight; not at all like his normal self.
Shane is normally fast but Pac is way faster than Shane was Saturday night.
Exactly. He was tense cos he couldnt predict Floyd or handle his speed, just like Roger (I think) said would happen on 24/7
He has tense before anything had even happened. Lederman gave him the first round (not sure if the judges did?) and obviously he won the second and had Floyd in trouble. Seemed like he was "handling" it okay. But he was tight and twitchy from the opening bell, before either guy had thrown a punch.
Orcus, Steward also thought it would be more competitive than it was. He made mention of Floyd looking more coordinated than Shane but that can be attributed to Floyd throwing Shane off but Steward also was surprised that Floyd looked physically stronger than Shane too.
I wonder how much we can draw for Manny/Floyd out of Floyd/Shane and Manny/Marquez.
orcus - He has tense before anything had even happened. Lederman gave him the first round (not sure if the judges did?) and obviously he won the second and had Floyd in trouble. Seemed like he was "handling" it okay. But he was tight and twitchy from the opening bell, before either guy had thrown a punch.
Hmm.... Shane said he got tight or stiff after he caught Floyd in the second but cant remember how he looked in the first. From what i do remember of R1, it was pretty close but Shane could have edged it out.
They also mentioned that Shane possibly overtrained going into training for Floyd straight from training for Berto....though that would be up to Shane's camp to adjust.
As someone who watched Mosely fight at his best, it's clear that he's not the fighter that he once was. I just don't think that in a sport where reflexes are everything, that most 35-year olds can compete at the highest levels. At least historically, most boxers are past their physical prime by Shane's age.
Pacquiao may not be a "boxer" but he is a puncher, packs a lot of power, has good feet, throws bunches in punches (at times from weird angles), is lefty, puts on great pressure and is good at cutting off the ring, fights to finish fights, and has shown improvement over the last few years, espcially after working w/ Freddy Roach.
What surprises me is how many Mayweather fans don't realize what a threat he poses to Mayweather. Pacman and Mosely are different fighters style-wise (Shane has never been a big puncher) and an easy victory over Mosely hardly translates into a victory over Pacquiao.
^ interesting point. im not that schooled on mosely either, i guess a major diff is that pac is a huge puncher then where mosely was a fast guy not a big puncher?
oh, i also forgot abou pac being a southpaw? how much impact would that have i wonder.
to be fair though, shane has never looked this bad, has he?
Correct me if im wrong but Pac, even though he knocked Hatton dead, seems to put guys out with volume. He throws heat and doesnt pitter patter but historically isnt exactly a 1 punch killer.
Wasa-B - Orcus, Steward also thought it would be more competitive than it was. He made mention of Floyd looking more coordinated than Shane but that can be attributed to Floyd throwing Shane off but Steward also was surprised that Floyd looked physically stronger than Shane too.
That's what I mean -- going into the fight, Emmanuel thought it would be very competitive. But almost immediately after the first bell rang, certainly long before Floyd got anything going, Emmanuel remarked on how off Shane looked.
supersonic - Correct me if im wrong but Pac, even though he knocked Hatton dead, seems to put guys out with volume. He throws heat and doesnt pitter patter but historically isnt exactly a 1 punch killer.
Usually. Especially at 147 lbs.. But that's what Holyfield was like at heavyweight. He didn't normally KO opponents w/ single shots. Pacquiao throws a lot of power shots and he's fucking fast, as Diaz said. That is a lethal combination and that's the kind of fighter who can beat PBF. Pressure and more pressure. Don't let him rest. Lure him into exchanges. Does anyone really see PBF KOing Pacman?
Duran lured Leonard the first time into a brawl and look what happened. Same thing w/ JCC and Meldrick Taylor (also the first fight). Both of those guys were supposed to box rings around their allegedly less skilled opponents.
Shane just isn't the same fighter that he once was. That's obvius to anyone who saw him fight some years ago. Father time catches up w/ all of us...
orcus -Wasa-B - Orcus, Steward also thought it would be more competitive than it was. He made mention of Floyd looking more coordinated than Shane but that can be attributed to Floyd throwing Shane off but Steward also was surprised that Floyd looked physically stronger than Shane too.
That's what I mean -- going into the fight, Emmanuel thought it would be very competitive. But almost immediately after the first bell rang, certainly long before Floyd got anything going, Emmanuel remarked on how off Shane looked.
The Return of the Yaaakuuuzaaa! WOOORK! ;p
ron den otter -supersonic - Correct me if im wrong but Pac, even though he knocked Hatton dead, seems to put guys out with volume. He throws heat and doesnt pitter patter but historically isnt exactly a 1 punch killer.
Usually. Especially at 147 lbs.. But that's what Holyfield was like at heavyweight. He didn't normally KO opponents w/ single shots. Pacquiao throws a lot of power shots and he's fucking fast, as Diaz said. That is a lethal combination and that's the kind of fighter who can beat PBF. Pressure and more pressure. Don't let him rest. Lure him into exchanges. Does anyone really see PBF KOing Pacman?
Duran lured Leonard the first time into a brawl and look what happened. Same thing w/ JCC and Meldrick Taylor (also the first fight). Both of those guys were supposed to box rings around their allegedly less skilled opponents.
Shane just isn't the same fighter that he once was. That's obvius to anyone who saw him fight some years ago. Father time catches up w/ all of us...
I suppose it comes down to who throwing who off?
Pac pressuring Floyd relentlessly, taking some shots but getting the better off so that Floyd cannot stick and move? Will Pacs combo of power, speed, combos, footwork, chin, cardio, relentless pressure give Floyd too much to dance around? Floyd did show he can step up in the middle, he got off right in front of Shane.
Or Floyd just evading everything Pac throws at Floyd and getting tagged in the process. Hit and dont get hit?
"I suppose it comes down to who throwing who off?"
Doesn't it almost always come down to which fighter can exploit the weaknesses of the other fighter? Or alternatively, utilize his strengths? Whether it's MMA or boxing? Pacman is a dangerous opponent because he has both hand and foot speed and he is a killer. He finishes fights. Is he off balance at times? Yes. Is he as good defensively as PBF? Not even close. But can he make PBF fight a fight where he has the advantage? That's the $64,000 question, right?
Pac pressuring Floyd relentlessly, taking some shots but getting the better off so that Floyd cannot stick and move? Will Pacs combo of power, speed, combos, footwork, chin, cardio, relentless pressure give Floyd too much to dance around? Floyd did show he can step up in the middle, he got off right in front of Shane.
Mosely once had Pacman's or Pacman-like speed. At 35, he no longer does. Never had his power, even when he used steriods.
Or Floyd just evading everything Pac throws at Floyd and getting tagged in the process. Hit and dont get hit?
Not bad analysis for a guy who claims not to be a boxing expert. Me thinks that the lady doth protest too much... or something like that :) For me, seriously, PBF-Pacman is an intriguing matchup style-wise. Very hard to say how it will turn out if it comes off at all.
The world was waiting in anticipation for Wasa-B to weigh in
"The Return of the Yaaakuuuzaaa! WOOORK! ;p"
ha...I don't think there was anything at all fishy. I think either Shane got old, or he was over-trained, or felt the pressure in the biggest fight of his career, or maybe he really had been roiding before. In any case I think it would only have made a difference in how the fight looked and not in who won.
Shane has always been jittery, he was like that against Vernon Forrest, Floyd Sr said it best in 24/7. Shane will come out jittery and Floyd will counter with his right hand.
Floyd applying pressure and not letting Shane get off was the key to the fight. Roger told Floyd after the second RD, just box the mother fucker, and he did just that for 10 straight RDs. He stood toe to toe with someone people figured he wouldn't do, he showed great heart, and the ability to take a hard fucking temple shot. I've only seen Fedor recover from a punch like that.
If Floyd wasn't so conditioned and mentally strong, he would of been out cold. Ishie Smith left a blog, he was training with Floyd for this fight, he said Floyd was training for two straight hours with only 10 second breaks. And never once did he tire.
It's going to take a fucking monster to beat Floyd, and I don't see anyone 154 and down who can do that. Sergio Martinez vs Floyd at 154 would be a lot more interesting to me then Pacquiao vs Floyd.
Floyd proved saturday he's a legit WW, and he would walk Manny down like he did to Shane, and I see Floyd's punches wearing down on the smaller Pacquiao which could very easily lead to left hook KO somewhere around the 10th. Manny has a lot of heart, and he takes a lot of punches in the process to work his offense, which would play right into the hands of Floyd who's a master at countering.
Juan Manuel and Erik Morales exposed Manny's lack of boxing skills, and I don't care if Roach helped Manny become a two handed fighter, he'll always be smaller, weaker defense, not on Floyd's boxing level and not smarter.
It's going to take more then one or two punches to slow Floyd down, Manny wont be able to do that.
Good analysis. I always appreciate quality posts, Bonds. If you're a Giants fan, we already friends :)
As I've said in some other threads, if you put a gun to my head and said that I had to choose, I'd pick PBF, for some of the reasons that you stated above. I wouldn't read too much into the Mosely fight and conclude that PBF would do the same to Pacquiao. W/out question, Pacquiao is the smaller fighter w/ much worse defense. But I do think he punches harder and has a killer instinct that PBF doesn't. That's why I love Pacquiao. He is a warrior. He is a throwback to the days of Duran, Hagler, and Chavez. He's not there to win on points and win a decision. You have to admire and give him credit for that. He's not even a real welterweight, after all. He shouldn't even be fighting in that weight class.
Good points about his fights against Morales and JMM. But how would you explain what happened to PBF (early) against Zab Judah? What happened to PBF's great defensive and counterpunching skills?
For me, Manny's "lack of boxing skills" --I wouldn't put it this way but again I see your point-- may not matter if he can force PBF to exchange w/ him. If PBF can dictate the pace and make Manny fight his fight, the result is obvious. Btw, comparatively, Manny has been in wars and hung in there when the going got tough. PBF has never been in a war and he has never, to his credit, been beaten up. How does he respond if he starts to take punishment? Sure, he took a very good shot from Mosely in the 2nd round but that's not the same as taking a beating and then coming back. Pacman might have the hand and foot speed to make this happen. In sum, I think that this is a closer fight than you think it is.
I used to wonder why Pernell Whitaker's opponents could mysteriously do very little of what they usually could. I finally concluded that the truly great fighters (Robinson, Ali, Duran, etc.) have a trait I call "Handcuffing."
They basically handcuff the other guy and refuse to let him do what he normally does.
Floyd does the same thing.
He's a master cuffer. Shane drilled him with that big right and then never really landed it again. Floyd also did the same thing to Hatton - Ricky was in his wheelhouse and on the inside right where he needed to be, but Hatton couldn't land much. Floyd just takes your tools away from you once he sees what you have, and especially (and this is truly a trait of the greats) after you have nailed him hard.
He adjusts very well.