"I've only seen Fedor recover from a punch like that."
lol
As always, jase, some good points...
"The world was waiting in anticipation for Wasa-B to weigh in"
How come?
"Doesn't it almost always come down to which fighter can exploit the weaknesses of the other fighter? Or alternatively, utilize his strengths? Whether it's MMA or boxing? Pacman is a dangerous opponent because he has both hand and foot speed and he is a killer. He finishes fights. Is he off balance at times? Yes. Is he as good defensively as PBF? Not even close. But can he make PBF fight a fight where he has the advantage? That's the $64,000 question, right?"
Pretty much, i think there arent really any secrets about either fighter or the matchup and only questions that can be answered if they fight.
"PBF-Pacman is an intriguing matchup style-wise."
Yeah, best defensive boxer vs best offensive boxer.
"Mosely once had Pacman's or Pacman-like speed. At 35, he no longer does. Never had his power, even when he used steriods."
Notable observation.
The size thing is another.
Another thing on the size thing: was the initial fight to be at 147lbs?
Floyd looked pretty big and physical vs Shane as Steward noted.
orcus - "I've only seen Fedor recover from a punch like that."
lol
yeah, im sure this isnt the only other case eva
jaseprobst - I used to wonder why Pernell Whitaker's opponents could mysteriously do very little of what they usually could. I finally concluded that the truly great fighters (Robinson, Ali, Duran, etc.) have a trait I call "Handcuffing."
They basically handcuff the other guy and refuse to let him do what he normally does.
Floyd does the same thing.
He's a master cuffer. Shane drilled him with that big right and then never really landed it again. Floyd also did the same thing to Hatton - Ricky was in his wheelhouse and on the inside right where he needed to be, but Hatton couldn't land much. Floyd just takes your tools away from you once he sees what you have, and especially (and this is truly a trait of the greats) after you have nailed him hard.
He adjusts very well.
Yeah, with that kind of defensive mastery, its not surprising but guess putting him that kind of elite company is also huge.
Has Floyd surpassed Whitaker's in the defense dept? But what impressed me about him vs Shane was that he stood right in front of him and just tagged him anytime Shane tried to do anything.
I guess the only other defensive, counter and shutdown guy comparable in MMA is/was Machida but Machida had yet to really reign over elite comp until he faced a new and impovingly patient Shogun.
Also, Machida really started to take the fight to guys from Thiago to Rashad.
Then there is GSP who just shuts everyone down by just controlling everything about a fight from striking to tds to the ground.
anyhow, thanks for the comments guys. rare actual discussion on floyd and pac.
you can laugh Orcus, because you're a hater, but there isn't to many athletes walking around that can take a solid blow to the temple and still stay on their feet.
ron den otter - Good analysis. I always appreciate quality posts, Bonds. If you're a Giants fan, we already friends :)
As I've said in some other threads, if you put a gun to my head and said that I had to choose, I'd pick PBF, for some of the reasons that you stated above. I wouldn't read too much into the Mosely fight and conclude that PBF would do the same to Pacquiao. W/out question, Pacquiao is the smaller fighter w/ much worse defense. But I do think he punches harder and has a killer instinct that PBF doesn't. That's why I love Pacquiao. He is a warrior. He is a throwback to the days of Duran, Hagler, and Chavez. He's not there to win on points and win a decision. You have to admire and give him credit for that. He's not even a real welterweight, after all. He shouldn't even be fighting in that weight class.
Good points about his fights against Morales and JMM. But how would you explain what happened to PBF (early) against Zab Judah? What happened to PBF's great defensive and counterpunching skills?
For me, Manny's "lack of boxing skills" --I wouldn't put it this way but again I see your point-- may not matter if he can force PBF to exchange w/ him. If PBF can dictate the pace and make Manny fight his fight, the result is obvious. Btw, comparatively, Manny has been in wars and hung in there when the going got tough. PBF has never been in a war and he has never, to his credit, been beaten up. How does he respond if he starts to take punishment? Sure, he took a very good shot from Mosely in the 2nd round but that's not the same as taking a beating and then coming back. Pacman might have the hand and foot speed to make this happen. In sum, I think that this is a closer fight than you think it is.
Die Hard Giants fan here buddy. Other then Ricky Hatton, Pac doesn't really have that one punch KO that would really worry Floyd, I think the Shane fight had more people interested because Shane has KOed bigger fighters.
Pacquiao's punishment through out the fight is usually what takes a toll on his opponents. Floyd is probably the most intelligent fighter in boxing right now, and I know he wouldn't allow Pacquiao to try and dictate the fight, he'll control the ring and use his jab and size to his advantage.
Zab is a fast basterd, and he caught Floyd clean, which happens, but as usual Floyd settled down and started to pick Zab apart. Floyd is the best at adjusting to adversity and always has 3 to 4 different game plans.
no doubt Floyd has shown a lot of heart, but he's also be visible taking more punishment at WW. Floyd wont let him off the hook, Manny is a great small guy, but Floyd is a great big guy.
meant to say, Manny has shown a lot of heart
btw, as good as PBF is defensively, I wouldn't put him at Whitaker's level. At his best, Whitaker was perhaps the finest defensive fighter of all-time, p4p. His fight against Chavez was a masterpiece (don't get me started on the decision; there's no way that that fight could've been scored that way on the up and up) and even though he was past his prime, I thought that he beat DLH, who was in his prime at that time. I got to see Whitaker fight live once when I was living in Philadelphia. What a treat. Meldrick Taylor was on the same card.
At that weight in that sport and to get hit as few times as he does is amazing.
As an athlete Mayweather is super impressive. He is rarely on his toes bouncing or shuffling around at a distance. Just shows insane discipline and spacing almost always within punching distance of his opponent.
He will figure Pac out imo and be able to dictate things as usual.
that right hand was sharp as pins
but pac wont be throwing like that exactly
I think getting behing a good, strong jab is the key to beating Floyd. ODLH was doing this well for the first half of their fight, as was Castillo in their first fight.
The fact that Pacquaio struggled so badly against a good counterfighter in JMM, and he doesn't have a jab worth mentioning, leads me to think that Floyd will win this easy.
Duran called sugar rays wife a whore/prostitute, and told him he was a coward, and would run from him in the fight. That's when sugar shocked the world when a reporter asked him what his game plan was, he just said "im going to box him flat footed" and then everyone went nuts and the hype hysteria began.
That wont happen with pacman and mayweather, because this time its the boxer who has the mind game.manny is a very proud person, if floyd called his mother a whore, or did some serious shit talking, manny would be flailing his arms like a madman and get thoroughly disected.
I don't buy into the hype though, once pacman gets destroyed, they'll say he was too small just like they did with jmm. I'm awaiting to see who he fights at jr middleweight.
ron den otter -supersonic - Correct me if im wrong but Pac, even though he knocked Hatton dead, seems to put guys out with volume. He throws heat and doesnt pitter patter but historically isnt exactly a 1 punch killer.
Usually. Especially at 147 lbs.. But that's what Holyfield was like at heavyweight. He didn't normally KO opponents w/ single shots. Pacquiao throws a lot of power shots and he's fucking fast, as Diaz said. That is a lethal combination and that's the kind of fighter who can beat PBF. Pressure and more pressure. Don't let him rest. Lure him into exchanges. Does anyone really see PBF KOing Pacman?
Duran lured Leonard the first time into a brawl and look what happened. Same thing w/ JCC and Meldrick Taylor (also the first fight). Both of those guys were supposed to box rings around their allegedly less skilled opponents.
Shane just isn't the same fighter that he once was. That's obvius to anyone who saw him fight some years ago. Father time catches up w/ all of us...
KingOfFighters - Duran called sugar rays wife a whore/prostitute, and told him he was a coward, and would run from him in the fight. That's when sugar shocked the world when a reporter asked him what his game plan was, he just said "im going to box him flat footed" and then everyone went nuts and the hype hysteria began.
I remember all of that. Duran lured him into a brawl --"The Brawl in Montreal" as SI called it-- ah, memories... Wasa-B is right that we shouldn't read too much into PBF's win over Mosely; Pacquiao and Mosely are different fighters.
That wont happen with pacman and mayweather, because this time its the boxer who has the mind game.manny is a very proud person, if floyd called his mother a whore, or did some serious shit talking, manny would be flailing his arms like a madman and get thoroughly disected.
Or he might overwhelm PBF w/ his speed and flurries of power shots. I agree w/ some of the above criticism of Pacquiao and the disadvantage he is at but whatever you want to say on behalf of PBF, and there's a lot to be said about his control of the ring, defense, and counterpunching, Pacquiao is a warrior and PBF isn't. We've never seen PBF in a real fight. We've never seen him have to take punishment, suck it up, and come back to win. We have seen the quality in all truly great fighters. For me, of the fighters that I watched as a kid and as an adult, Hagler always comes to mind. Pacquiao is tough like that too.
I don't buy into the hype though, once pacman gets destroyed, they'll say he was too small just like they did with jmm. I'm awaiting to see who he fights at jr middleweight.
I just don't see Pacman "getting destroyed," and again, I'm surprised that you see the likely result as being so lopsided. Pacquiao has some tools to give PBF problems. If anything, PBF wins a decision. If anyone gets KTFO, it's PBF. And it couldn't happen to a nicer person :)
The way Manny "leaps" at his opponents I can see him getting countered and knocked down even out.
The biggest advantage Money has over Manny is that Money can adjust in real time. While Manny has to rely on Roach for instructions.
This is going to be key. The first 4 rounds will be competitive but after that Money will have Manny timed and will drain Manny of any will to win.
I agree that Manny does leap in and is off-balance at times but he has very good feet --as in he gets himself into a position to punch very quickly even when he's off-balance-- and in this sense he's awkward and will be difficult to prepare for; it's not as if you can easily find sparring partners who can imitate Pacquiao.
I haven't seen an fighter ever drain him of his will to win.
Btw, unlike what's going on in other PBF-Pacman threads, I'm really enjoying this discussion.