That is, what are some specific things one can point to that show how the art that Helio taught differed from what came from Japan.
I don't think anyone will be able to point to any Helio innovations because they simply don't really exist. That being said, even if he did make innovations in movements and whatnot (beyond individual techniques), it would be pretty hard for anyone to demonstrate that. The most that people will be able to point to is that Helio took on a very passive, defensive fighting strategy that he truly believed was necessary for a smaller man to beat the larger opponent. However, only some of Helio's students have adopted that same strategy (like Royce), and many have their own distinct styles. 
he got dam good at the cross choke,did he invent it no,but his adjustments make bb's to this day come to ryron for a lesson.
as for MD's post i cant disagree with it,but i will seek out some olds guys for info.
the only thing i can say is,we know most of carlos side has not been truthful in re: to the oldman.who gave them a bb,who they trained with as kids
In for whatever.
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
the video.
Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
12 -I think it's a two way street as to the sides being untruthful
he got dam good at the cross choke,did he invent it no,but his adjustments make bb's to this day come to ryron for a lesson.
as for MD's post i cant disagree with it,but i will seek out some olds guys for info.
the only thing i can say is,we know most of carlos side has not been truthful in re: to the oldman.who gave them a bb,who they trained with as kids
I can't watch any more videos hearing about how weak Helio was. The Helio that I see on this page
http://gbdownersgrove.com/2013/10/the-real-story-of-the-fight-of-the-century-is-revealed-for-the-first-time-after-62-years/
(the one of him in the black singlet) looks like the sort of guy who busts out 25 or 30 pull-ups, not the sort of guy who struggles with 1.
Looks pretty athletic to me, at least as far as body type.
misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
Putting out an open challenge to anybody in the world who wanted to come in and fight him no rules.
Anybody who does that is innovative enough for me.
PrisonMattressPuncher - ^^^Seriously?
Helio was a frail boy growing up. Even in that picture, from what I have been told, he was no top athlete. He was tall and skinny and supple, but was not athletic in any sense of say, some one like a wrestler.
Come on man look at the guy in that photo. He was clearly in shape and while he didn't look like a super athlete, he was certainly in shape and capable.
Until the time he was about 15 he suffered from fainting spells, after he took up jiu-jitsu he became stronger. He is about 25 in that photo.
Polygamy?
U jelly?
nope not jelly... pretty good innovation..
The Mat Pimp -I think he was instrumental in developing some of those. I don't think he invented any of them.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.