PrisonMattressPuncher - ^^^
Helio was a frail boy growing up. Even in that picture, from what I have been told, he was no top athlete. He was tall and skinny and supple, but was not athletic in any sense of say, some one like a wrestler.
He invented Leverage guys!!11!
And also breathing... gravity... etc... 
The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
Rickson came from his nutsack
I came from a helio school and one observation I've had now that I train at a Carlos influenced school is the fundamentals and mechanics behind them are taught totally different. To the point where it shocked me that the moves were taught the way they were. More strength, speed and explosive movements. Totally contrary to how I was introduced to jiujitsu.
<blockquote>JoejitsuMD - <span id='userPost48581751' class='User-147207'><blockquote>The Mat Pimp - <blockquote>misterw - <span id='userPost48578511' class='User-249385'><blockquote>Markus Barrett - <span id='userPost48578344' class='User-319316'><p>
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission. </p>
<p>
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details. </p>
<p>
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those. </p>
<p>
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position. </p>
<p>
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard. </p>
<p>
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor. </p></span></blockquote><br /> So there was no closed guard before him?</span></blockquote><br />Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:<br /><br />1. Closed Guard<br />2. Open Guard<br />3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.<br />4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.<br />5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo. <br />6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo. <br />7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.<br />8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.</blockquote>The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
</span></blockquote><br /> You sound as if you have researched this a fair amount. I am interested in this topic, but probably not likely to spend a huge amount of time researching it myself. <br /><br />Are the jiu jitsu approaches/techniques from the Franca lineage different at all? <br /><br />Would you say the whole idea of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu being a separate art from what came before is a bit of a scam?
TheBearStare - I came from a helio school and one observation I've had now that I train at a Carlos influenced school is the fundamentals and mechanics behind them are taught totally different. To the point where it shocked me that the moves were taught the way they were. More strength, speed and explosive movements. Totally contrary to how I was introduced to jiujitsu.
Joe jitsu on the money
^ Also, seems hard to distinguish between stylistic differences resulting from the culture of that particular school versus differences resulting from a different lineage.
ie Marcelo's jiu jitsu is more explosive than other blackbelts who may have the same lineage.
MickColins -12 -I think it's a two way street as to the sides being untruthful
he got dam good at the cross choke,did he invent it no,but his adjustments make bb's to this day come to ryron for a lesson.
as for MD's post i cant disagree with it,but i will seek out some olds guys for info.
the only thing i can say is,we know most of carlos side has not been truthful in re: to the oldman.who gave them a bb,who they trained with as kids
JoejitsuMD -The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
This topic has actually already been pretty well covered on this forum if you search some of the older threads on the origins of BJJ.
FWIW, It is pretty common for martial arts have a "creation mythology" that is less than truthful or even outright made up. BJJ is no different. HOPEFULLY after you have done BJJ long enough you start to realize this. However, some practitioners --for a variety of reasons-- choose to remain willfully ignorant. But, the information is out there for those who want to know a more historically accurate history of the art they practice.
But just realize that in 2014 you can still find Tae Kwon Do schools which advertise that, "TKD is 2,000 year old martial art": http://www.hvcn.org/info/oring/wis.html
--Or that Tang Soo Do goes back to the silla dynasty: http://www.josefikskoreantsd.com/history.htm
Now, if you are fimilar with MA history, you realize those claims are absolutely INSANE, but there they are --they still persist in some quarters. My point is just that bullsh!t history is and always has been a part of martial arts. Some of the most charismatic martial arts teachers in the world have propagated myths in order to better market their art. For instance, keeping with Korean & Japanese martial arts for a moment, If you were a Korean teaching a Japanese Martial Art during or after the Japanese Occupation --you either made up a BS history for what you were teaching or you would probably have very limited success. Almost EVERYONE teaching martial arts during that era in Korea made up stories about their art which are hilariously far fetched.
What the Gracies did was not all that dissimilar.
Ultimately though, it really is up to each of us as practitioners to decide if we want to keep spreading that type of misinformation.
misterw -TheBearStare - I came from a helio school and one observation I've had now that I train at a Carlos influenced school is the fundamentals and mechanics behind them are taught totally different. To the point where it shocked me that the moves were taught the way they were. More strength, speed and explosive movements. Totally contrary to how I was introduced to jiujitsu.
Do you have specific examples?
honestly when it comes to helio and his bros(and someone else would easily have way more knowledge then me on this,) i always felt their time with maeda was limited and it was pretty much up to them to learn on their own and figure out the rest. so thats why they feel like they innovated all this stuff even if it had been done in japan earlier. whether its triangles, omo platas sweeps blah blah, maybe they saw glimpses or nothing at all and years later "invented" moves or made it work for them cause they never got it right when it was first introduced to them.
Let's take Kimura vs Helio as an example. Kimura stated that if Helio could last more than a minute then he should consider himself the victor. He was from the original lineage and assumed a lighter,and yes weaker opponent compared to himself, with less time put into the art, would be easily defeated. What could this little Brazilian man bring to the table that he had not already seen? Obviously he was mistaken and Helio had innovated a newer more efficient way of defending against a more aggressive style of Jiu Jitsu. There's no doubt that Kimura was surprised and respected what had been created. This should in and of itself show that Helio did do something that had a significant impact that added to and improved an already established system.
Now, it's obvious that people are going to say that I'm regurgitating the same brainwashed marketing spouted by the Gracies,specifically Helio's side. But did we not just hear Renzo,the grandson of Carlos Sr. and probably the most honest Gracie, say that Helio was an innovator and responsible for the Jiu Jitsu we see today?
He invented the Acai flavor of kool-aid. It is very popular with the masses.
WTF? i just saw this on the wikipedia page for the gracies. if true it explains so much
Gastão Gracie became a business partner of the American Circus in Belém. In 1916, the Italian Argentine Queirolo Brothers staged circus shows there and presented Mitsuyo Maeda, a Japanese judoka and prize fighter.[5][6]
JoejitsuMD -The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
So should I get my Helio tattoo removed?
PrisonMattressPuncher - I have a story I have never told, but it came from a Carlson Gracie black belt years ago in late 90s.
After a seminar, I privately asked what the style difference was between the two sides. He paused and said with his accent, something like (paraphrased): "Well, I recently trained with Helio's sons and I was simply a little shocked and amazed at some of the efficiency that is lacking on Carlson's style. In my opinion, for the average person, Helio's style is best. Carlson was very successful because he trained a lot of tough guys for fighting, but what it made was a more rougher and aggressive system that overall doesn't have the finesse and attention to detail that Helio's side had. Carlson's style is for tough, athletic guys, but Helio's s much more methodical"
He mentioned that he could really train with Helio's side because of all the politics but would if he could because he felt their refinement of a lot of techniques was much higher.
So, that convinced me to look at Helio's side a little more closely as I do it for fun, self-defense, etc.