hey 12 im confused at the time line. when did you send jordan to train with javi? i thought jordan had only been with torrance all the way since he was like 9
JoejitsuMD -The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
i admit...i drank the kool aid.
but.....NOBODY was doing anything like Gracie jiujitsu in 1984 through 1993. NOBODY.....not free style wrestling...not greco roman wrestling....not tkd...kung fu...chin na...japan ju jutsu....bruce lee jun fan....dan inosanto...benny the jet...super foot wallace...ralph alegria....hulk hogan...superfly snooka...muhamad ali,...larry holmes....mike tyson.....u.s. army...or u.s. marines....not even rusian sambo.....no judoka ever showed anything like gracie jiujitsu..BUT NOBODY was showing anything like gracie jiujitsu..
since carlson was family champion in the 50's and 60.s. and rolls in the 70's, and rickson in the 80;s and 90.s, i am going to go with what both sides of the gracies say about gracie jiujitsu. carlos had 2 years of training with maeda. he taught it to his brothers...helio modified it, and all the boys had to learn it.
after 20 years of ufc and royce...the only argument that everybody agrees to is carlson gracie wanted his own school and his own students, as his own style of jiujitsu, that was better than anyone else, and that his students could not train with anyone else.
after 20 years of jiujitsu...i have not heard of other maeda students doing challenge matches for 50 years after learning from maeda.
the only non gracie lineage i have heard of is jacare souza..mundial winner 2003....from faddha from franca from maeda. and it was more stand up judo throws based, with more top game, than bottom. jacare was known for throwing all of his opponents. i dont even know if jacare has a closed guard. roger broke his arm in the mundials, and jacare ran around the mat for the last 2 minutes to steal a win. and when jacare matched with damian maia...maia was all over jacares back, and jacare could not get him off. and where was faddha in the 70's and 80's? where was franca in the 40's and 50's? i assume they were teaching? were they fighting? i never heard of them until jacare won the mundials.
i looked for other stories.on jiujitsu..and only kosen judo comes close to the ground work...and these videos were from the 60's. and after the those kosen judo guys died...no one from japan comes close.
believe me, my friends and i looked around for other stories of jiujitsu during the 90.s. but no one has 70 years of fighting n.h.b.. nobody.
TheBearStare - hey 12 im confused at the time line. when did you send jordan to train with javi? i thought jordan had only been with torrance all the way since he was like 9
jordan has been at torrance since 94 so like 6 or 7 yrs old, when he was about 16 yrs old rose met javi.
jordan thought he wanted to compete more and i couldnt think of a better person then javi to get him ready .so rose made the call and javi started to get him ready (privates only). well wrestling season started and that was the end of that.after his 2nd season of varsity wrestling he was done wanting to compete in jj tournies.
he finished his last 2 yrs of wrestling ,made the masters tournie and never wanted to get ready for a tournie again.
1 Like
Markus Barrett -JoejitsuMD -The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
i admit...i drank the kool aid.
but.....NOBODY was doing anything like Gracie jiujitsu in 1984 through 1993. NOBODY.....not free style wrestling...not greco roman wrestling....not tkd...kung fu...chin na...japan ju jutsu....bruce lee jun fan....dan inosanto...benny the jet...super foot wallace...ralph alegria....hulk hogan...superfly snooka...muhamad ali,...larry holmes....mike tyson.....u.s. army...or u.s. marines....not even rusian sambo.....no judoka ever showed anything like gracie jiujitsu..BUT NOBODY was showing anything like gracie jiujitsu..
since carlson was family champion in the 50's and 60.s. and rolls in the 70's, and rickson in the 80;s and 90.s, i am going to go with what both sides of the gracies say about gracie jiujitsu. carlos had 2 years of training with maeda. he taught it to his brothers...helio modified it, and all the boys had to learn it.
after 20 years of ufc and royce...the only argument that everybody agrees to is carlson gracie wanted his own school and his own students, as his own style of jiujitsu, that was better than anyone else, and that his students could not train with anyone else.
after 20 years of jiujitsu...i have not heard of other maeda students doing challenge matches for 50 years after learning from maeda.
the only non gracie lineage i have heard of is jacare souza..mundial winner 2003....from faddha from franca from maeda. and it was more stand up judo throws based, with more top game, than bottom. jacare was known for throwing all of his opponents. i dont even know if jacare has a closed guard. roger broke his arm in the mundials, and jacare ran around the mat for the last 2 minutes to steal a win. and when jacare matched with damian maia...maia was all over jacares back, and jacare could not get him off. and where was faddha in the 70's and 80's? where was franca in the 40's and 50's? i assume they were teaching? were they fighting? i never heard of them until jacare won the mundials.
i looked for other stories.on jiujitsu..and only kosen judo comes close to the ground work...and these videos were from the 60's. and after the those kosen judo guys died...no one from japan comes close.
believe me, my friends and i looked around for other stories of jiujitsu during the 90.s. but no one has 70 years of fighting n.h.b.. nobody.
Jacare most certainly has a closed guard. Hell he used it to tap Marcelo Garcia in ADCC and has used it plenty of times. Just because a person is not weak enough on their passing to where they do not voluntarily pull a guard doesn't mean they don't have one.
And if you want the Fadda lineage you can go back to what was formally Gama Filho University which later morphed into GF Team, one of the preeminent teams on the sport side of things today. One of the leaders/founders of Nova Uniao is also of the Fadda lineage. Most of the Fadda lineage guys were not in major cities like Rio so they never got the limelight recognition. My teacher's teacher is a Fadda black belt as well, they all just looked at what they were doing as jiu-jitsu and its the rest of the world that made the big distinctions.
What Markus said. I was 21 in 1992 and was part of a small 'Functional JKD" group that knew about the Gracies. And this can be attributed to Paul Vunak,who had been studying with Rorion and Rickson since 1984. He actually got some shit from other JKD guy's asking what the hell he was doing putting on a gi and basically studying what they thought was just Judo. If you knew what was about to happen in 1993, you knew that the world was about to see something special. When Royce came out I told my brother to watch this dude he's gonna beat everybody.
If you weren't around at the time you can't appreciate how paradigm shifting that first UFC was. Four fights in one night? No rules? No time limit? GTFO,nobody does that.
Now we have "experts" saying the Gracies aren't shit and never created anything special. The new Jiu Jitsu is the real Jiu Jitsu. Thanks, but I'll pass on that Kool Aid.
1 Like
There was an academy challenge back in the 1950's between Fadda and gracie. Fadda took all but one of the matches.
If Helio was so advanced and his techniques were so advanced, why did a bunch of non-gracie grapplers pretty much shut down all the gracie grapplers? 
Horus2001 - There was an academy challenge back in the 1950's between Fadda and gracie. Fadda took all but one of the matches.
If Helio was so advanced and his techniques were so advanced, why did a bunch of non-gracie grapplers pretty much shut down all the gracie grapplers?
Why does one team ever beat another team in a competition? Because they brought better competitors on that day. But Oswaldo and Humberto Fadda held Helio Gracie in the highest regard, Humberto named his son after Helio Gracie.
And by the same token, Gracie students have beat Fadda's students in many, many events over decades. They were all great pioneers of Jiu-Jitsu.
PrisonMattressPuncher - I have a story I have never told, but it came from a Carlson Gracie black belt years ago in late 90s.If your gonna make such a statement, at least name names.
After a seminar, I privately asked what the style difference was between the two sides. He paused and said with his accent, something like (paraphrased): "Well, I recently trained with Helio's sons and I was simply a little shocked and amazed at some of the efficiency that is lacking on Carlson's style. In my opinion, for the average person, Helio's style is best. Carlson was very successful because he trained a lot of tough guys for fighting, but what it made was a more rougher and aggressive system that overall doesn't have the finesse and attention to detail that Helio's side had. Carlson's style is for tough, athletic guys, but Helio's s much more methodical"
He mentioned that he could really train with Helio's side because of all the politics but would if he could because he felt their refinement of a lot of techniques was much higher.
So, that convinced me to look at Helio's side a little more closely as I do it for fun, self-defense, etc.
Horus2001 - There was an academy challenge back in the 1950's between Fadda and gracie. Fadda took all but one of the matches.
If Helio was so advanced and his techniques were so advanced, why did a bunch of non-gracie grapplers pretty much shut down all the gracie grapplers?
now thats a story i would like to hear.....you gotta give details to a story like that. in the 50's that would of been carlson. are you saying carlson lost to fadda? details please.
PrisonMattressPuncher - I have a story I have never told, but it came from a Carlson Gracie black belt years ago in late 90s.
After a seminar, I privately asked what the style difference was between the two sides. He paused and said with his accent, something like (paraphrased): "Well, I recently trained with Helio's sons and I was simply a little shocked and amazed at some of the efficiency that is lacking on Carlson's style. In my opinion, for the average person, Helio's style is best. Carlson was very successful because he trained a lot of tough guys for fighting, but what it made was a more rougher and aggressive system that overall doesn't have the finesse and attention to detail that Helio's side had. Carlson's style is for tough, athletic guys, but Helio's s much more methodical"
He mentioned that he could really train with Helio's side because of all the politics but would if he could because he felt their refinement of a lot of techniques was much higher.
So, that convinced me to look at Helio's side a little more closely as I do it for fun, self-defense, etc.
Technically superior...?
Sure, maybe... unless you run into somone who simply lifts weight & does sloppy jiu jitsu. I mean if being a tough guy is all it takes to "beat" Helio's Jiu jitsu, just how superior could it be...?
I had a similar experince when I was a new BB with a Brazilian 2nd degree who trained with Helio,Sauer. VERY old school. He criticized me behind my back, saying I muscled everything. It bugged me. Now, I'm nothing special at all, but we rolled and I Kimuraed him in front of several other BBs he knew who were visiting from Brazil --BELIEVE ME-- he didn't want that to happen. He never rolled with me again.
I didn't say it to him at the time, but I was thinking: "If your jiu jitsu is so much better WHY on earth couldn't you beat a lughead like me who has no technique and 'muscles everything'?" (FWIW, I don't lift weights, at all)
So, that's kind of what I wonder when people say stuff like this. The idea is somehow that Helio's jiu jitsu is vastly "superior" yet it doesn't quite work well on people with sloppy technique who do some push-ups....?
Carlson Trained students to beat other Gracies, students who had half the experience & training time of those Gracies. If the Helio techniques is so much better, HOW was that even possible? Was it simply because Carlson's team belonged to 24-Hour Fitness? or had a couple Thigh Masters sitting around?
The Mat Pimp -First, we don't know if Helio had his best students too. Given the event, it make sense that they brought their best to the mat. Has there been a time in a challenge you didn't present your best people. So logically, that argument doesn't seem to be valid.Horus2001 - There was an academy challenge back in the 1950's between Fadda and gracie. Fadda took all but one of the matches.
If Helio was so advanced and his techniques were so advanced, why did a bunch of non-gracie grapplers pretty much shut down all the gracie grapplers?
Why does one team ever beat another team in a competition? Because they brought better competitors on that day. But Oswaldo and Humberto Fadda held Helio Gracie in the highest regard, Humberto named his son after Helio Gracie.
And by the same token, Gracie students have beat Fadda's students in many, many events over decades. They were all great pioneers of Jiu-Jitsu.
Second, the premise is that Helio had develop jj that different, the results of the challenge showed that none of that appeared to matter and Fadda won the day.
So, one must ask, what happened to the inventions of Helio when his academy met a group of similarly trained and abled practitioners of grappling, they lost. Maybe Helios innovations were not a unique and special as advertised.
The whole Helio gjj origin story is questionable at best, dishonest at worst.
shen -PrisonMattressPuncher - I have a story I have never told, but it came from a Carlson Gracie black belt years ago in late 90s.
After a seminar, I privately asked what the style difference was between the two sides. He paused and said with his accent, something like (paraphrased): "Well, I recently trained with Helio's sons and I was simply a little shocked and amazed at some of the efficiency that is lacking on Carlson's style. In my opinion, for the average person, Helio's style is best. Carlson was very successful because he trained a lot of tough guys for fighting, but what it made was a more rougher and aggressive system that overall doesn't have the finesse and attention to detail that Helio's side had. Carlson's style is for tough, athletic guys, but Helio's s much more methodical"
He mentioned that he could really train with Helio's side because of all the politics but would if he could because he felt their refinement of a lot of techniques was much higher.
So, that convinced me to look at Helio's side a little more closely as I do it for fun, self-defense, etc.
Technically superior...?
Sure, maybe... unless you run into somone who simply lifts weight & does sloppy jiu jitsu. I mean if being a tough guy is all it takes to "beat" Helio's Jiu jitsu, just how superior could it be...?
I had a similar experince when I was a new BB with a Brazilian 2nd degree who trained with Helio,Sauer. VERY old school. He criticized me behind my back, saying I muscled everything. It bugged me. Now, I'm nothing special at all, but we rolled and I Kimuraed him in front of several other BBs he knew who were visiting from Brazil --BELIEVE ME-- he didn't want that to happen. He never rolled with me again.
I didn't say it to him at the time, but I was thinking: "If your jiu jitsu is so much better WHY on earth couldn't you beat a lughead like me who has no technique and 'muscles everything'?" (FWIW, I don't lift weights, at all)
So, that's kind of what I wonder when people say stuff like this. The idea is somehow that Helio's jiu jitsu is vastly "superior" yet it doesn't quite work well on people with sloppy technique who do some push-ups....?
Carlson Trained students to beat other Gracies, students who had half the experience & training time of those Gracies. If the Helio techniques is so much better, HOW was that even possible? Was it simply because Carlson's team belonged to 24-Hour Fitness? or had a couple Thigh Masters sitting around?
well i dont think the guy had much inter action with helio,he got his bb 6 yrs before you,now that you thru in sauer name,thats the same guy who has kelth and ari under him.
"vastly superior" never heard anyone say that.180 different
in teaching and philosophy,i seen it,felt it ,understand it.
you being a lughead lol
Horus2001 -The Mat Pimp -First, we don't know if Helio had his best students too. Given the event, it make sense that they brought their best to the mat. Has there been a time in a challenge you didn't present your best people. So logically, that argument doesn't seem to be valid.Horus2001 - There was an academy challenge back in the 1950's between Fadda and gracie. Fadda took all but one of the matches.
If Helio was so advanced and his techniques were so advanced, why did a bunch of non-gracie grapplers pretty much shut down all the gracie grapplers?
Why does one team ever beat another team in a competition? Because they brought better competitors on that day. But Oswaldo and Humberto Fadda held Helio Gracie in the highest regard, Humberto named his son after Helio Gracie.
And by the same token, Gracie students have beat Fadda's students in many, many events over decades. They were all great pioneers of Jiu-Jitsu.
Second, the premise is that Helio had develop jj that different, the results of the challenge showed that none of that appeared to matter and Fadda won the day.
So, one must ask, what happened to the inventions of Helio when his academy met a group of similarly trained and abled practitioners of grappling, they lost. Maybe Helios innovations were not a unique and special as advertised.
The whole Helio gjj origin story is questionable at best, dishonest at worst.
Briefly, I don't know how you can argue with the contention that the Faddas showed up with the better team that day. As to whether it was the best team, I can't say but it did not have most of the big names like the Joao Alberto Barreto and Alvaro Barreto, Carlson Gracie, Waldemar Santana, Moacir Ferraz, George Gracie, etc. so it is open to debate.
As to your second point, it is axiomatic that a Gracie Academy blue belt will get smoked by a typical sport oriented blue belt in a sport match. I imagine it was no different then.
None of that means that Helio didn't create all the things I listed in my first post.
pheonix5 - ^ It was a specific challenge to Helio's Academy.
http://www.faddajiujitsu.com/history/
yea...thats a good story. so, how many n.h.b. fights did faddha have? iin the 50/s? (just curious)
Markus Barrett -pheonix5 - ^ It was a specific challenge to Helio's Academy.
http://www.faddajiujitsu.com/history/
yea...thats a good story. so, how many n.h.b. fights did faddha have? iin the 50/s? (just curious)
I have tried answering that question myself and I can't find any fighters that come from that lineage. Sure they currently have the GF Team but these guys don't fight they just do Sport Jiu-jitsu as far as I can find. If someone has information to counter thsi assumption by all means tell us.
JoejitsuMD -The Mat Pimp -The level of ignorance to BJJ history and development is so strong in this entire thread that it's heartbreaking. Please guys, get out there and do some research. Read some books about Jigoro Kano and his memoirs. Yes the same 5'0, 115lb man who's techniques according to Helio were based off of strength. At the very least read the summary translation of the Portuguese book entitled "Carlos Gracie – O Criador De Uma Dinastia. Spend some time reading about early 20th century judo fighters and how the art that was taught to Carlos was so completely different from what we think about today's judo. Put some time into researching Luis Franca and his lineage of Jiu Jitsu that came from Maeda and never went through a Gracie yet is practiced as the same BJJ today. I urge everyone to buy Roberto Pedreira's book "Choque, the untold story of jiu jitsu in brazil" which is due to be released this month. We have black belts in BJJ here regurgitating the same crap they have been told without ever diving in to discover what is truth and what is made up for self gratification and marketing purposes. This is why I could never be a politician, I just don't understand why people are content being wrong and don't have a desire to seek out knowledge and truth. Christ almighty it's like I'm setting here playing cards with my brother's kids or something.misterw -Markus Barrett -
closed guard, and the details of making it work. open guard recovery to the closed guard. pressing up armbar from guard 1.5. probably the spinning armbar from guard. probably the stage 2 punch block postion - which is just a modified knee shield. (for the tournament players) (but carlson really mastered the knee shield i think) probably added some details to the top position controls and submissions to tighten them up. but not a new submission.
i dont think he invented the oupa and elbow escape, but he definitly added some details.
lots of submission escapes....i mean alot. because he was always on his back defending. pwp said the headlock escapes from side control. i never thought about those.
the stand up self defense is probably straight from japan. the mount, side control and back submissions are probably straight from japan. but, i will admit, there is a back control that is probably from helio. because the back mount and the closed guard are basically the same position.
but there are some kosen judo videos made in the late 50's or early 60's which the ground work looks the same, but different. i rembmer the kosen judo guys doing alot of omoplatas from guard.
in 1993, rorion turned on the light. let everybody know what was missing. did wrestling a huge favor.
So there was no closed guard before him?
Things Helio Gracie invented or was instrumental in developing:
1. Closed Guard
2. Open Guard
3. The "Vale Tudo" application of Jiu-Jitsu, which was basically absent from Judo, as opposed to shiai.
4. Headlock, strikes, pistol, club, and knife defenses which are totally different from, or absent, in Judo.
5. Striking techniques and positions which are different from, or absent in Judo.
6. Strategies for: multiple attackers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. which were not present in Judo.
7. The positional hierarchy to serve as a roadmap for a fight.
8. The guard strategy as a way to overcome larger, stronger, heavier opponents.
Dude, he invented leverage! Seriously though, good post.
I am from Royce's lineage so I might be biased, but I think Helio's contributed a bunch, like how not to get the shit beat out of you when you have someone in your guard.
Helio set the bar. He ran the orginal academy, taught everyone who was someone, insisted on perfect technique, required all aspects of jiujitsu be taught including self defense, sport, and vale tudo. Led from the front. Would fight anyone at the drop of a hat to prove jiujitsu works. Of course he didn't do it all on his own and many other family members and students helped and invented things. But Helio did things and set the stage for everyone that followed.
In my view, Helio's jiujitsu is for everyone. Not everyone can fight MMA or win the Mundials. But Helio's jiujitsu can be learned by just about anyone and actually used in self defense by anyone. I am 47 and I have students older than me and students smaller or not as athletic as me. They are NOT learning berimbolos or Muay Thai. But they ARE learning Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, living a better lifestyle, and benefiting from it. So for me, Helio's jiujitsu means you don't have to be a jacked-up, bad ass, super athlete to train, defend yourself, and have a better life.
interesting ,so fadda earned a bb from a guy that recieved a bb from the man himself.carlos only took 2 yrs worth of lesson and earned a blue belt.helio watched and learned with carlos and then began to teach. some how helio became more famous as a blue belt then a bb of Maeda.call me crazy,but that in itself is something i can give the oldman props for.
we i know how carlos felt about helio,take my kids and teach them gjj, all of them.i know all you guys were told helio didnt teach them,but wait,you were told the truth later
shen -PrisonMattressPuncher - I have a story I have never told, but it came from a Carlson Gracie black belt years ago in late 90s.
After a seminar, I privately asked what the style difference was between the two sides. He paused and said with his accent, something like (paraphrased): "Well, I recently trained with Helio's sons and I was simply a little shocked and amazed at some of the efficiency that is lacking on Carlson's style. In my opinion, for the average person, Helio's style is best. Carlson was very successful because he trained a lot of tough guys for fighting, but what it made was a more rougher and aggressive system that overall doesn't have the finesse and attention to detail that Helio's side had. Carlson's style is for tough, athletic guys, but Helio's s much more methodical"
He mentioned that he could really train with Helio's side because of all the politics but would if he could because he felt their refinement of a lot of techniques was much higher.
So, that convinced me to look at Helio's side a little more closely as I do it for fun, self-defense, etc.
Technically superior...?
Sure, maybe... unless you run into somone who simply lifts weight & does sloppy jiu jitsu. I mean if being a tough guy is all it takes to "beat" Helio's Jiu jitsu, just how superior could it be...?
I had a similar experince when I was a new BB with a Brazilian 2nd degree who trained with Helio,Sauer. VERY old school. He criticized me behind my back, saying I muscled everything. It bugged me. Now, I'm nothing special at all, but we rolled and I Kimuraed him in front of several other BBs he knew who were visiting from Brazil --BELIEVE ME-- he didn't want that to happen. He never rolled with me again.
I didn't say it to him at the time, but I was thinking: "If your jiu jitsu is so much better WHY on earth couldn't you beat a lughead like me who has no technique and 'muscles everything'?" (FWIW, I don't lift weights, at all)
So, that's kind of what I wonder when people say stuff like this. The idea is somehow that Helio's jiu jitsu is vastly "superior" yet it doesn't quite work well on people with sloppy technique who do some push-ups....?
Carlson Trained students to beat other Gracies, students who had half the experience & training time of those Gracies. If the Helio techniques is so much better, HOW was that even possible? Was it simply because Carlson's team belonged to 24-Hour Fitness? or had a couple Thigh Masters sitting around?
okay...thats kind of a tangent. everybody knows carlson had the most champions. threads not about helio vs. carlson vs. gracie bara vs. rcj macado. vs. humaita.
now, the helio jiujitsu vs. the faddha jiujitsu. whats the same vs. whats different. i think that would get us closer to the truth of what helio did or did not contribute to gracie jiujitsu.
anybody have video of faddha jujitsu guys fighting in the 1950's through the 1970's? this i would like to see. (for the record...bj penn trained with ralph)