my god this edit function
^ sorry!
I love most of your posts Shen, but the above about Koryu artists not engaging in Judo/BJJ-esque grappling is not true. See, for example, the life of Yukio Tani (http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm) who was a koryu jujutsuka with the guard as his speciality technique. See if anything looks familiar in The Game of Jiu Jitsu, from 1906: http://www.scribd.com/doc/88787193/The-Game-of-Jujitsu-Yukio-Tani-Gunji-Koizumi-1906
Judo didn't spring fully formed from Kano's mind, there was an existing tradition of sporting competition and unarmed, civilian martial arts.
While the kata of Fusen ryu don't have much BJJing about, Mataemon Tanabe who was headmaster did specialise in it and taught it to lots of people who were or later became Judoka (http://sydhoare.com/FUSEN.pdf)
BJJ comes from other Jiu Jitsu styles via Judo, no question, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't share things in common with some of its antecedents or that everyone who taught Judo in its early years was grown in Kano's cloning tank.
Butsugai creator of Fusen studied many styles of ryu.
"On top of Nanba-Ippo Ryu, he studied Yoshin-ryu, Shibukawa Ryu, Kito-ryu, Takenouchi-ryu, Yagyu-ryu, Sekiguchi-ryu, etc. and, by adopting strong points of each style and created his style “Fusen-ryu”.
It has a variety of techniques such as devastating “Atemi” (Tsuki), which was a speciality of Butsugai, “Shime” (strangling of joints), “Gyakute” (twisting and over-extending of joints), “Nage” (throwing) and “Ne waza” (ground techniques).
Butsugai died in 1867.
Several branch schools, as certain other branch schools of Fusen-Ryu still exist today, and they do not focus on newaza). One branch school that does is Shin Mei Fusen Ryu Jujutsu.
I'll post a link here as to what happened to Kosen Judo
http://tohkonryujujitsu.blogspot.com/2011/03/kosen-judo.html
The idea Maeda was a Kosen guy never made much sense to me. He left Japan in 1904. The Kosen rules and developments started 1914. Exposure to Fusen-Ryu seems more likely but I don't think there is any verifyable evidence to support that either.
As far as Maeda and Kosen, it also doesn't fall in line with this article:
http://judoinfo.com/oda.htm
It seem this article recognizes Oda as a pioneer of the Kosen era. Key points in the article:
-Oda noticed in 1909 that Ne Waza was not emphasized very much and was of minor importance.
-Oda convinced Kano that there should be more emphasis on groundwork. (I believe Oda didn't attain black belt until 1911. When did convincing Kano take place?)
-Oda's lower ranked students defeated Kodokan black belts in 1930. This became an eye opening experience for the Kodokan. (This was the "Uh Oh, we better learn ground grappling" moment.)
All of this happened long after Maeda left Japan. Now, some of you judo guys are going to say that Maeda just learned judo of the day and that's why he is a good ground fighter. If that was the case, then why did Oda not have a good impression of the state of Judo Ne Waza in 1909? Was Oda making a revisionist history?
Kano's assistant, Yamashita, had gone to America in 1903 where, successively, he taught at Harvard University, the US Naval Academy at Annapolis, and taught Theodore Roosevelt. He found Roosevelt enthusiastic but "headstrong." In 1904, Tsunejiro Tomita and Mitsuyo Maeda followed Yamashita to America for roughly 2 years. Tomita taught at Columbia University, while Maeda traveled to Europe, and Central and South America. Maeda, a Kodokan 4th Dan, found he could earn good money staging competitions with all comers, and gained notoriety as "Conde Koma," the Count of Trouble. Eventually, after many dramatic exhibitions, winning nearly all, he settled in Brazil in 1914 along with Japanese settlers.
Shen beat me to it. Kosen is not some damned offshoot of judo, it is just a subset of rules for university tournaments. If you go to Japan and want to "study" kosen judo japanese judoka will look at you like a idiot as it would be like saying you want to study NAGA bjj. Unfortunately bjj guys in the west try to take that and put a twist on it, thus the creation of the mythic kosen judo bjj is supposedly derived from. BJJ comes from pre-WW2 judo, period.
And Sword69, my guess is this: Just like today, depending on your teacher in judo your groundwork could be excellent or complete shit (kind of like some bjj teams having good standup and others having none at all). So yeah Maeda DID learn his groundwork from judo but I would venture to say either his teachers excelled at newaza as well or Maeda just took to it moreso. Everybody has their own stylistic approaches to all martial arts and judo is no different, so if you are better at finishing a person on the ground vs throwing them for ippon then that is where your focus can go. It is guys who become hyper specialists in the end.
pheonix5 - Let's take Kimura vs Helio as an example. Kimura stated that if Helio could last more than a minute then he should consider himself the victor. He was from the original lineage and assumed a lighter,and yes weaker opponent compared to himself, with less time put into the art, would be easily defeated. What could this little Brazilian man bring to the table that he had not already seen? Obviously he was mistaken and Helio had innovated a newer more efficient way of defending against a more aggressive style of Jiu Jitsu. There's no doubt that Kimura was surprised and respected what had been created. This should in and of itself show that Helio did do something that had a significant impact that added to and improved an already established system.
Now, it's obvious that people are going to say that I'm regurgitating the same brainwashed marketing spouted by the Gracies,specifically Helio's side. But did we not just hear Renzo,the grandson of Carlos Sr. and probably the most honest Gracie, say that Helio was an innovator and responsible for the Jiu Jitsu we see today?
Is there any source for that quote from Kimura besides Rorion Gracie?
(Rorion may not be the best source here. For example, he also described Kato as the #2 jiu-jitsu man in the world" which is 100% false.)
In his writings, Kimura simply describes Helio a judo man and even assigns him a 6th dan ranking. Have you read the excerpts of his memoirs that are available online? He was actually on a pro wrestling tour of Brazil when Helio made the challenge.
http://judoinfo.com/kimura4.htm
As for Renzo, he absolutely does not say Helio was responsible for the jiu-jitsu we see today -- that's also incorrect.
Here's a direct quote:
"He learned from Carlos and his brothers, Osvaldo, Gastao and Jorge. That’s the reality. He was the youngest one. He would be coming to the academy looking at them teaching jiu jitsu. You want to claim he invented jiu jitsu? If there is anybody who can have that claim, in our family, after my grandfather (my grandfather never claimed it), then it would be Rolls.
Rolls is the one who died in a hang-gliding accident, and he was the guy who actually completely changed jiu jitsu in Brazil. He started training a lot of wrestling, a lot of judo, he started training SAMBO, and he was able to incorporate all that into jiu jitsu. He was the one responsible for all the evolution we have today. He was the pioneer of all that change."
He credits Helio as an important link in the chain of jiu-jitsu history, though. There's a huge difference between saying he was the most prominent instructor of Gracie Academy, or most important fighter of his day (I agree with both), and implying he brought the concept of leverage into jiu-jitsu (I don't).
"As for Renzo, he absolutely does not say Helio was responsible for the jiu-jitsu we see today -- that's also incorrect."
who is renzo talking about in the video posted on the front page?
Hunter V - Shen beat me to it. Kosen is not some damned offshoot of judo, it is just a subset of rules for university tournaments. If you go to Japan and want to "study" kosen judo japanese judoka will look at you like a idiot as it would be like saying you want to study NAGA bjj. Unfortunately bjj guys in the west try to take that and put a twist on it, thus the creation of the mythic kosen judo bjj is supposedly derived from. BJJ comes from pre-WW2 judo, period.
And Sword69, my guess is this: Just like today, depending on your teacher in judo your groundwork could be excellent or complete shit (kind of like some bjj teams having good standup and others having none at all). So yeah Maeda DID learn his groundwork from judo but I would venture to say either his teachers excelled at newaza as well or Maeda just took to it moreso. Everybody has their own stylistic approaches to all martial arts and judo is no different, so if you are better at finishing a person on the ground vs throwing them for ippon then that is where your focus can go. It is guys who become hyper specialists in the end.
As I understand it, Maeda was taught mostly by Tomita Tsunejiro who was not much for groundwork.
But it would seem Maeda was -- and a rough-and-tumble character who competed in wrestling, judo, and mixed matches alike.
Reading about Kano, he seems a guy who really believed in judo as a way to better humanity. He wasn't much for it as spectacle.
In a book I read recenlty, he's quoted as saying, "Participation in professional matches will turn Kodokan judo men into fighters and entertainers first, not individuals seeking development of character and moral sense through training," and demoted several guys who participated in wrestling vs. judo matches in Japan. I thought that was interesting.
Maybe this plays into Maeda spawning "Brazilian jiu-jitsu" instead of "Brazilian judo" somehow. I don't know. I know the terms judo and jujutsu were used more or less interchangably at one point.
Rolls was definitely a major pioneer in jiu-jitsu and arguably the greatest Gracie in some people's minds. With that said, the transformation of jiu-jitsu came before him. You can clearly see Carlson (video below) combining jiu-jitsu with strong judo, wrestling (fighting from the clinch) and striking in his classic matchup against Santana in the 50's, the same decade that Rolls was born. Not saying that Carlson was solely responsible for this transformation, just pointing out that it started before Rolls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSk9A6uCwpg
12 - "As for Renzo, he absolutely does not say Helio was responsible for the jiu-jitsu we see today -- that's also incorrect."
who is renzo talking about in the video posted on the front page?
It's inaudible, at least on my laptop. But I have the DVD which it came from, The Gracies and the Birth of Vale Tudo and just watched now.
Anyway, sure Renzo describes Helio as "one of the biggest innovators" there, but, as you can see from the quote I offer -- not quite the biggest.
The DVD spends more time on Rolls than Helio as well, not sure if you've seen it? Renzo was credited as Executive Producer.
hackett -12 - "As for Renzo, he absolutely does not say Helio was responsible for the jiu-jitsu we see today -- that's also incorrect."
who is renzo talking about in the video posted on the front page?
It's inaudible, at least on my laptop. But I have the DVD which it came from, The Gracies and the Birth of Vale Tudo and just watched now.
Anyway, sure Renzo describes Helio as "one of the biggest innovators" there, but, as you can see from the quote I offer -- not quite the biggest.
The DVD spends more time on Rolls than Helio as well, not sure if you've seen it? Renzo was credited as Executive Producer.
i will call a good friend and watch it with him,(last name not gracie) but so far from talking to him about whats been posted in the past on this board. bjj in the 70's in brazil i will take his word for it.rolls kicked rickson ass when he was a kid,that didnt last long.
You can hear the audio for his appearance on the Fightworks Podcast if you don't believe me.
"You want to claim he invented jiu-jitsu? If there's anybody who can have that claim, in our family, after my grandfather (my grandfather never claimed it), it's Rolls."
Here's the link again: http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2009/11/29/renzo-gracie/
Don't be scared, homie
PointyShinyBurn - I love most of your posts Shen, but the above about Koryu artists not engaging in Judo/BJJ-esque grappling is not true. See, for example, the life of Yukio Tani (http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm) who was a koryu jujutsuka with the guard as his speciality technique. See if anything looks familiar in The Game of Jiu Jitsu, from 1906: http://www.scribd.com/doc/88787193/The-Game-of-Jujitsu-Yukio-Tani-Gunji-Koizumi-1906
Judo didn't spring fully formed from Kano's mind, there was an existing tradition of sporting competition and unarmed, civilian martial arts.
While the kata of Fusen ryu don't have much BJJing about, Mataemon Tanabe who was headmaster did specialise in it and taught it to lots of people who were or later became Judoka (http://sydhoare.com/FUSEN.pdf)
BJJ comes from other Jiu Jitsu styles via Judo, no question, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't share things in common with some of its antecedents or that everyone who taught Judo in its early years was grown in Kano's cloning tank.
Well, Yukio Tani was a Judoka as well as a jujutsu teacher; he is of a later period since he was born at the very end of the Koryu era. He also studied Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (one of the 2 main styles which are responsible for Judo Newaza). Plus, no one is really sure, beyond that, what all else he studiedother than Fusen Ryu. So I don't really see how he can be used as an example of a true "Koryu Jujutsuka" since he had other influences. Find me an example of somone who used techniques like him 100 years earlier, then I would agree with you.
I myself actually studied a little bit ( a couple months) of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the mid-90s and have a black belt in Danzan Ryu, which has some kata from Iwaga Ryu, Yoshin Ryu and Kosogabe Ryu. I also have a mentor/friend who is well versed in several Koryu Arts and is an instructor of Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu (Jodo). He traveled the world with Donn Dreger. A lot of my opinions on Koryu are based on what I have learned from him.
In my opinion the GENERALIZATIONS I made about how Koryu Bujutsu differs from Modern era/ Judo influenced jujitsu styles are correct. Japanese Martial arts from feudal Japan are a completely different animal from martial arts created after 1867.
Shen, I had read a few things about Yukio Tani and his challenge matches in England but have seen very little info on the techniques that he used to win so many matches.
shen -PointyShinyBurn - I love most of your posts Shen, but the above about Koryu artists not engaging in Judo/BJJ-esque grappling is not true. See, for example, the life of Yukio Tani (http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm) who was a koryu jujutsuka with the guard as his speciality technique. See if anything looks familiar in The Game of Jiu Jitsu, from 1906: http://www.scribd.com/doc/88787193/The-Game-of-Jujitsu-Yukio-Tani-Gunji-Koizumi-1906
Judo didn't spring fully formed from Kano's mind, there was an existing tradition of sporting competition and unarmed, civilian martial arts.
While the kata of Fusen ryu don't have much BJJing about, Mataemon Tanabe who was headmaster did specialise in it and taught it to lots of people who were or later became Judoka (http://sydhoare.com/FUSEN.pdf)
BJJ comes from other Jiu Jitsu styles via Judo, no question, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't share things in common with some of its antecedents or that everyone who taught Judo in its early years was grown in Kano's cloning tank.
Well, Yukio Tani was a Judoka as well as a jujutsu teacher; he is of a later period since he was born at the very end of the Koryu era. He also studied Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (one of the 2 main styles which are responsible for Judo Newaza). Plus, no one is really sure, beyond that, what all else he studiedother than Fusen Ryu. So I don't really see how he can be used as an example of a true "Koryu Jujutsuka" since he had other influences. Find me an example of somone who used techniques like him 100 years earlier, then I would agree with you.
I myself actually studied a little bit ( a couple months) of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the mid-90s and have a black belt in Danzan Ryu, which has some kata from Iwaga Ryu, Yoshin Ryu and Kosogabe Ryu. I also have a mentor/friend who is well versed in several Koryu Arts and is an instructor of Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu (Jodo). He traveled the world with Donn Dreger. A lot of my opinions on Koryu are based on what I have learned from him.
In my opinion the GENERALIZATIONS I made about how Koryu Bujutsu differs from Modern era/ Judo influenced jujitsu styles are correct. Japanese Martial arts from feudal Japan are a completely different animal from martial arts created after 1867.
Tani wasn't a Judoka until Kano came to London in 1920 and promoted him straight to 2nd Dan. How is a guy whose only study was koryu "impure" because, like lots of fighting Jujutsu guys, the Kodokan later swallowed him?
Kano didn't invent randori, or ground-fighting, or jujitsu competitions, or even the word "Judo", he borrowed them from existing styles. Just because much modern koryu has devolved into dead training and historical re-enactment doesn't alter that Kano started at a school where you sparred hard and frequently and only learned the kata when you'd convinced the coach you weren't a time waster.
Aaron Lapointe -
Rolls was definitely a major pioneer in jiu-jitsu and arguably the greatest Gracie in some people's minds. With that said, the transformation of jiu-jitsu came before him. You can clearly see Carlson (video below) combining jiu-jitsu with strong judo, wrestling (fighting from the clinch) and striking in his classic matchup against Santana in the 50's, the same decade that Rolls was born. Not saying that Carlson was solely responsible for this transformation, just pointing out that it started before Rolls.
I agree. If you read/listen to the Fightworks Podcast interview with Renzo which I quoted earlier, he clearly states that there isn't any one creator of jiu-jitsu: "he (Rolls) was humble enough to understand he was nothing but part of a link of a huge chain that we hope will last forever."
I only brought up Renzo's words there because it bothered me seeing him misquoted on this thread.