Vale was legit tough. Certainly he had some prowrestling crossovers (just like Saku, Shammy, Barnett and a slew of others), but he was the real deal for his era.
brahmabull81 - Off grooming the stache.
For real though I have seen a couple of Barts NHB fights and he was pretty well rounded for the time (shady fight with Shammy disregarded here). I just remember him in some brutal beatdown of a little guy or something IIRC. Perhaps thats why he wasnt liked?
Yeah, I think the Bitonio fight brings up unhappy high school memories for many posters.
Vale was listed at 7-0 by Battlecade here, but that's just how things worked back then. He had beaten Mike Bitonio (RIP) and went .500 in a half dozen RINGS matches that I never bothered tracking down.
Murakami is listed as 1996 Japanese judo champion of the world, whatever that means. He did the Lumax Cup before this fight and I think did some high school level judo.
Anyway, Vale pretty much looks lost here, and that's mostly how I remember his legit fights. Props for being a pioneer for sure, hey I give anyone props for fighting at all -- but you've got to approach things honestly too, and seems he just wasn't among the more skilled or athletic fighters of his day.
As an aside, it's kind of odd how he & Murakami had opposite paths.
Murakami went on to fight in PRIDE and elsewhere, but mostly found success as a pro wrestler.
Vale, who learned to fight among pro wrestlers, kind of disappeared from there & the NHB/MMA scene but is vaguely remembered as a "shootfighting champion." He fought once more after this, a loss to Dan Severn in 2000.
I'm not saying aliens got him but...
To answer the question, he has a kempo school in Florida.
TKD LOL - Consumed by his own stache after that dreadful Bitonio fight that shows up in my YouTube sidebar every Fucking dayLol same thing w my youtube
Yea, I felt bad for Bitonio. His face was a mess. It's nice to see he has a Kempo school. So many of the early pioneer guys ended up with almost nothing. The youtube vid where he's talking about the early MMA days I found kind of funny. Almost as if he doesn't really like the sport.
Bitonio was tough as nails..im not sure how skilled he was but he made up for that with his toughness and endurance..
what do people think of the way World Combat championships was set up, with grappler and striker brackets?i thought it was very inteesting at the time but a terrible idea when u think about it..they would have had to eventually change the format to straight mma as all fighters started to cross train..besides, with the format the way they had it, sometimes the better fighter lost, example Paulson/Warring..we all know Paulson would beat Warring had they fought in a true mma match..
".we all know Paulson would beat Warring had they fought in a true mma match."
You mean without that hair pulling?
WCC is fucking classic, introduced Renzo to the world. God I would have loved it if Vale hadn't gotten cut and had to pull out of the match vs Renzo. Renzo was a fucking killing machine in that event and I would have loved to see him pull apart a guy the size of Vale.
He ran a string of "shoot fighting" gyms back in the 90s into the early 2000s. They varied but a few were basically early mma gyms.
There was a lot of catch wrestling based subs in that style then. They would put on gym vs gym "shoot fights" where striking was only allowed while you were standing.
Met Vale once and thought he was kind of rough around the edges, ha. Definitely some legit mma guys came from that background though.
Marcus Marinelli, head coach for Stipe Miocic and Jessica Eye came out of Vale's camp actually. I think he parted ways with him well over a decade though.
Vale vs Bitonio was fun as hell. I was very disappointed that we didn't get to see Renzo vs Vale- there was some good buildup for that match.
Vale came from Al Tracy's Kenpo karate IIRC. That was one of the I trained in before UFC 2 (didn't see UFC 1 when it came out originally). I could be wrong but I seem to remember one of our black belts showing me a magazine Vale was in from around 1992. I can't remember if I thought "what the hell is this shootfighting stuff?" or if I felt secure that we had a large fighter representing our system.
i saw bart on mtv sports and i think it was before ufc 1. in wcc they said he had ko'd shamrock.
at that time i was convinced he was the real deal. i didnt know most of his fights were fake
U4EA - WCC is fucking classic, introduced Renzo to the world. God I would have loved it if Vale hadn't gotten cut and had to pull out of the match vs Renzo. Renzo was a fucking killing machine in that event and I would have loved to see him pull apart a guy the size of Vale.
i dont think Vale HAD to pull out of his fight with Renzo..i remember reading an interview with Vales manager(Black Belt mag) and he said even though Vale was cut, it wasnt serious enough to warrant him bowing out of the tourny..they had seen Renzo and knew he was just too tough so they just decided to withdraw from the tourny..
U4EA - WCC is fucking classic, introduced Renzo to the world. God I would have loved it if Vale hadn't gotten cut and had to pull out of the match vs Renzo. Renzo was a fucking killing machine in that event and I would have loved to see him pull apart a guy the size of Vale.
yes this. but a fresh 1st round Vale vs Renzo woulda been AWESOME!
Bry Bry -U4EA - WCC is fucking classic, introduced Renzo to the world. God I would have loved it if Vale hadn't gotten cut and had to pull out of the match vs Renzo. Renzo was a fucking killing machine in that event and I would have loved to see him pull apart a guy the size of Vale.
i dont think Vale HAD to pull out of his fight with Renzo..i remember reading an interview with Vales manager(Black Belt mag) and he said even though Vale was cut, it wasnt serious enough to warrant him bowing out of the tourny..they had seen Renzo and knew he was just too tough so they just decided to withdraw from the tourny..
Metzler said he believed Vale was just tired as he wasnt expecting Bitinio to be that tough. and didnt want to face Renzo that fatigued.
Check out this fight where Kakuda (Pride ref) kicks him so hard his shorts turn into an skirt!
https://youtu.be/qaq7TeJqQ0Q
HeyMarkIt1886 - He ran a string of "shoot fighting" gyms back in the 90s into the early 2000s. They varied but a few were basically early mma gyms.
There was a lot of catch wrestling based subs in that style then. They would put on gym vs gym "shoot fights" where striking was only allowed while you were standing.
Met Vale once and thought he was kind of rough around the edges, ha. Definitely some legit mma guys came from that background though.
Marcus Marinelli, head coach for Stipe Miocic and Jessica Eye came out of Vale's camp actually. I think he parted ways with him well over a decade though.
This. Vale's ISFA affiliates. Some had Tracy Kenpo ties in which he was awarded 10th Dan. Also:
DAN BOBISH: American cross-trained wrestler, known as "The Bull", 3-time All American wrestler, 1992 Division 3 NCAA Champion, World Japan professional wrestler, had 1994 NFL tryout with the Cleveland Browns, shootfighter, judo practitioner, trained under Bart Vale's Shootfighting, bar bouncer for 16 years, UFC veteran, UVF veteran, former KOTC Super Heavyweight Champion, trains at Tracy's Karate and with Marcus Marinelli and Becky Levi at the Bart Vale Shootfighting Academy, with a MMA record of 9-5 in MMA.
Vale was just a big tough dude, end of story.
Tell me where he shined...
boxing-no
kickboxing-no
wrestling-no
BJJ/Judo/sambo/catch-no
conditioning-no
Just a big tough guy who did some pro wrestling and knew how to promote himself. Hence his 1-3 life in MMA.
William C -Carson's Corner radio show -Carlton Fist - Vale's body was already aging and failing him when he fought in NHB/MMA. Imagine how Vale vs Renzo, Vale vs Paulson, Paulson vs Renzo would have in Super Fight style without politics and striker or grappler WCC brackets. Vale had similar knowledge to Ken Shamrock and Hume at the time.
Is this post serious? Both Ken and especially Hume had way more knowledge at the time than Vale did ever.
There is no way Hume had more knowledge than Ken in the early 1990's during their Pancrase stints. Hume became a wizard after then, but watch all his Pancrase fights (yes, I know there is an asterisk next to Hume's fights with Ken and Sullivan). In Pancrase Hume (IMO) showed great wrestling but little submission, submission defense, or striking. Pancrase asked Ken to go scout Hume and his group actually. Not sure how Pancrase knew of him.
Vale didn't have the knowledge Ken did either. In fact Ken's first (Florida) tryout around June 1990- when he knew absolutely nothing about submissions (he had only seen the Funaki vs Suzuki worked 4/90 match afaik)- he grappled Vale and handled him easily.
William C -
Its a damn shame that only maybe a couple handfuls of posters here, yourself included, understand just how good Ken really was.
I realize the past decade has not been kind to Ken. But that is no excuse for ignorance... newer fans or not.
Ken could wrestle, and he knew his submissions very well. He also had real life experience on the streets, illegal organized bare knuckle fights, and toughman contests. There just weren't a whole lot of guys in the early 90's that were bringing that formidable of a package to the table. Among those who did, Ken was usually physically superior.
Ken was basically a monster among men, who intuitively understood how to physically impose himself in a fight. The grappling knowledge he gained was really just icing on the cake. I believe Ken got to a point where he might have thought too much of himself as a technician, and this limited him. He was absolutely ahead of his time on a technical level... but his off-the-charts physical presence was his best weapon.
Regardless - Bart Vale couldn't handle one side of Ken Shamrock.
No disrespect to Vale, because I realize the guy was promoting himself and making living. It was certainly a different era, in more ways than just the evolution of technique. But I agree it would be nice to get some real history from him, and many other guys from that era. It would only make them look better in the eyes of hardcore/old-school fans... and we are pretty much the only ones who give a shit anyways, LOL.
As far as Matt Hume... I would never say anything at all negative about that man. He is an MMA legend in his own right, and has a wealth of knowledge. I hold both Hume and Paulson in VERY high regard. ANY fighter should be honored to receive coaching from guys like this.
As fighters though... Ken was on a much higher level than Hume. Of course, Ken's ridiculous physicality was part of that reality.