"Didn't he try and convince the world he ko'd Shamrock in what was clearly a work?"
The KO may have been real, but it was not a real fight, just a stiff kick thrown in a worked match.
Ken would have wasted Bart in a real fight.
Bry Bry -U4EA - WCC is fucking classic, introduced Renzo to the world. God I would have loved it if Vale hadn't gotten cut and had to pull out of the match vs Renzo. Renzo was a fucking killing machine in that event and I would have loved to see him pull apart a guy the size of Vale.<br /> <span class="User-118539" id="userPost54547287">i dont think Vale HAD to pull out of his fight with Renzo..i remember reading an interview with Vales manager(Black Belt mag) and he said even though Vale was cut, it wasnt serious enough to warrant him bowing out of the tourny..they had seen Renzo and knew he was just too tough so they just decided to withdraw from the tourny..</span><br /> </blockquote>
Yeh, I thought it was a bit odd he pulled out. His manager was interviewed when it was announced he pulled out and he said Vale had a "severe laceration" on his scalp, which thought was odd because all he did was beat the shit out of Bitonio. The exhaustion theory makes more sense.
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Renzo!!
:)
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For those of you who don't know, the fight order was actually Spijkers, Benedict then Warring in the final.
Fun fact: when Jerry Bell fought against Phil Benedict in the WCC he was HIV positive.
Sub good read. 
JohnMc1 -Did Vale and Miragilotti go to the same tanning salon?HeyMarkIt1886 - He ran a string of "shoot fighting" gyms back in the 90s into the early 2000s. They varied but a few were basically early mma gyms.
There was a lot of catch wrestling based subs in that style then. They would put on gym vs gym "shoot fights" where striking was only allowed while you were standing.
Met Vale once and thought he was kind of rough around the edges, ha. Definitely some legit mma guys came from that background though.
Marcus Marinelli, head coach for Stipe Miocic and Jessica Eye came out of Vale's camp actually. I think he parted ways with him well over a decade though.
He still does IIRC. Dan Miragliotta used to be associated with him iirc.
onepunchJD -William C -Carson's Corner radio show -Carlton Fist - Vale's body was already aging and failing him when he fought in NHB/MMA. Imagine how Vale vs Renzo, Vale vs Paulson, Paulson vs Renzo would have in Super Fight style without politics and striker or grappler WCC brackets. Vale had similar knowledge to Ken Shamrock and Hume at the time.
Is this post serious? Both Ken and especially Hume had way more knowledge at the time than Vale did ever.
There is no way Hume had more knowledge than Ken in the early 1990's during their Pancrase stints. Hume became a wizard after then, but watch all his Pancrase fights (yes, I know there is an asterisk next to Hume's fights with Ken and Sullivan). In Pancrase Hume (IMO) showed great wrestling but little submission, submission defense, or striking. Pancrase asked Ken to go scout Hume and his group actually. Not sure how Pancrase knew of him.
Vale didn't have the knowledge Ken did either. In fact Ken's first (Florida) tryout around June 1990- when he knew absolutely nothing about submissions (he had only seen the Funaki vs Suzuki worked 4/90 match afaik)- he grappled Vale and handled him easily.
William C -
Its a damn shame that only maybe a couple handfuls of posters here, yourself included, understand just how good Ken really was.
I realize the past decade has not been kind to Ken. But that is no excuse for ignorance... newer fans or not.
Ken could wrestle, and he knew his submissions very well. He also had real life experience on the streets, illegal organized bare knuckle fights, and toughman contests. There just weren't a whole lot of guys in the early 90's that were bringing that formidable of a package to the table. Among those who did, Ken was usually physically superior.
Ken was basically a monster among men, who intuitively understood how to physically impose himself in a fight. The grappling knowledge he gained was really just icing on the cake. I believe Ken got to a point where he might have thought too much of himself as a technician, and this limited him. He was absolutely ahead of his time on a technical level... but his off-the-charts physical presence was his best weapon.
Regardless - Bart Vale couldn't handle one side of Ken Shamrock.
No disrespect to Vale, because I realize the guy was promoting himself and making living. It was certainly a different era, in more ways than just the evolution of technique. But I agree it would be nice to get some real history from him, and many other guys from that era. It would only make them look better in the eyes of hardcore/old-school fans... and we are pretty much the only ones who give a shit anyways, LOL.
As far as Matt Hume... I would never say anything at all negative about that man. He is an MMA legend in his own right, and has a wealth of knowledge. I hold both Hume and Paulson in VERY high regard. ANY fighter should be honored to receive coaching from guys like this.
As fighters though... Ken was on a much higher level than Hume. Of course, Ken's ridiculous physicality was part of that reality.
although i dont disagree with what you are saying, i have to ask..why didnt Ken shine in the Ufc since he was so physically superior and had such a great grapling game?instead, he struggled with guys like Felix Lee mitchell and his best submission win is over a brawler in Kimo...im not trying to bash Ken but his mma run wasnt exactly that amazing..given his background he should have dominated but he didnt come close..why?
Bry Bry -onepunchJD -William C -Carson's Corner radio show -Carlton Fist - Vale's body was already aging and failing him when he fought in NHB/MMA. Imagine how Vale vs Renzo, Vale vs Paulson, Paulson vs Renzo would have in Super Fight style without politics and striker or grappler WCC brackets. Vale had similar knowledge to Ken Shamrock and Hume at the time.
Is this post serious? Both Ken and especially Hume had way more knowledge at the time than Vale did ever.
There is no way Hume had more knowledge than Ken in the early 1990's during their Pancrase stints. Hume became a wizard after then, but watch all his Pancrase fights (yes, I know there is an asterisk next to Hume's fights with Ken and Sullivan). In Pancrase Hume (IMO) showed great wrestling but little submission, submission defense, or striking. Pancrase asked Ken to go scout Hume and his group actually. Not sure how Pancrase knew of him.
Vale didn't have the knowledge Ken did either. In fact Ken's first (Florida) tryout around June 1990- when he knew absolutely nothing about submissions (he had only seen the Funaki vs Suzuki worked 4/90 match afaik)- he grappled Vale and handled him easily.
William C -
Its a damn shame that only maybe a couple handfuls of posters here, yourself included, understand just how good Ken really was.
I realize the past decade has not been kind to Ken. But that is no excuse for ignorance... newer fans or not.
Ken could wrestle, and he knew his submissions very well. He also had real life experience on the streets, illegal organized bare knuckle fights, and toughman contests. There just weren't a whole lot of guys in the early 90's that were bringing that formidable of a package to the table. Among those who did, Ken was usually physically superior.
Ken was basically a monster among men, who intuitively understood how to physically impose himself in a fight. The grappling knowledge he gained was really just icing on the cake. I believe Ken got to a point where he might have thought too much of himself as a technician, and this limited him. He was absolutely ahead of his time on a technical level... but his off-the-charts physical presence was his best weapon.
Regardless - Bart Vale couldn't handle one side of Ken Shamrock.
No disrespect to Vale, because I realize the guy was promoting himself and making living. It was certainly a different era, in more ways than just the evolution of technique. But I agree it would be nice to get some real history from him, and many other guys from that era. It would only make them look better in the eyes of hardcore/old-school fans... and we are pretty much the only ones who give a shit anyways, LOL.
As far as Matt Hume... I would never say anything at all negative about that man. He is an MMA legend in his own right, and has a wealth of knowledge. I hold both Hume and Paulson in VERY high regard. ANY fighter should be honored to receive coaching from guys like this.
As fighters though... Ken was on a much higher level than Hume. Of course, Ken's ridiculous physicality was part of that reality.
although i dont disagree with what you are saying, i have to ask..why didnt Ken shine in the Ufc since he was so physically superior and had such a great grapling game?instead, he struggled with guys like Felix Lee mitchell and his best submission win is over a brawler in Kimo...im not trying to bash Ken but his mma run wasnt exactly that amazing..given his background he should have dominated but he didnt come close..why?
I think Ken's knee was very messed up at UFC 3, probably making the Mitchell fight longer than it should. The fight was over literally in seconds once it hit the ground (22 seconds, just checked). Ken's takedown defense was great but I think his takedowns weren't as good as his defense.
His mma run was amazing (I count Pancrase with mma, but I think you're just talking UFC). Still- it's hard to look head and shoulders dominant over the top guys of the day, such as Royce, Severn, and Oleg. In some of the fights with those guys (2nd Royce, 1st Severn, Oleg) he did look physically superior.
I'd say Ken's best submission win in UFC may be Severn, and best submission wins in Pancrase likely against Funaki.
Hard to say Ken didn't shine or wasn't amazing- from fall 1993 to spring 1996 the only fighter one could really argue was better was Royce, and that is very debatable for a portion of that time.
the whole wcc event
"I'd say Ken's best submission win in UFC may be Severn, and best submission wins in Pancrase likely against Funaki."
I should have expanded and said his best UFC submission win was Severn (a guy many thought would beat Ken. Someone larger/very physically imposing, with far more extensive grappling credentials). His best submission win in Pancrase was against Funaki (Ken's submission instructor, the best Japanese fighter of the day, and someone Ken submitted I think 3x in 2 fights).
Sounds much better than having his best sub be against a brawler.
William C -Bry Bry -onepunchJD -William C -Carson's Corner radio show -Carlton Fist - Vale's body was already aging and failing him when he fought in NHB/MMA. Imagine how Vale vs Renzo, Vale vs Paulson, Paulson vs Renzo would have in Super Fight style without politics and striker or grappler WCC brackets. Vale had similar knowledge to Ken Shamrock and Hume at the time.
Is this post serious? Both Ken and especially Hume had way more knowledge at the time than Vale did ever.
There is no way Hume had more knowledge than Ken in the early 1990's during their Pancrase stints. Hume became a wizard after then, but watch all his Pancrase fights (yes, I know there is an asterisk next to Hume's fights with Ken and Sullivan). In Pancrase Hume (IMO) showed great wrestling but little submission, submission defense, or striking. Pancrase asked Ken to go scout Hume and his group actually. Not sure how Pancrase knew of him.
Vale didn't have the knowledge Ken did either. In fact Ken's first (Florida) tryout around June 1990- when he knew absolutely nothing about submissions (he had only seen the Funaki vs Suzuki worked 4/90 match afaik)- he grappled Vale and handled him easily.
William C -
Its a damn shame that only maybe a couple handfuls of posters here, yourself included, understand just how good Ken really was.
I realize the past decade has not been kind to Ken. But that is no excuse for ignorance... newer fans or not.
Ken could wrestle, and he knew his submissions very well. He also had real life experience on the streets, illegal organized bare knuckle fights, and toughman contests. There just weren't a whole lot of guys in the early 90's that were bringing that formidable of a package to the table. Among those who did, Ken was usually physically superior.
Ken was basically a monster among men, who intuitively understood how to physically impose himself in a fight. The grappling knowledge he gained was really just icing on the cake. I believe Ken got to a point where he might have thought too much of himself as a technician, and this limited him. He was absolutely ahead of his time on a technical level... but his off-the-charts physical presence was his best weapon.
Regardless - Bart Vale couldn't handle one side of Ken Shamrock.
No disrespect to Vale, because I realize the guy was promoting himself and making living. It was certainly a different era, in more ways than just the evolution of technique. But I agree it would be nice to get some real history from him, and many other guys from that era. It would only make them look better in the eyes of hardcore/old-school fans... and we are pretty much the only ones who give a shit anyways, LOL.
As far as Matt Hume... I would never say anything at all negative about that man. He is an MMA legend in his own right, and has a wealth of knowledge. I hold both Hume and Paulson in VERY high regard. ANY fighter should be honored to receive coaching from guys like this.
As fighters though... Ken was on a much higher level than Hume. Of course, Ken's ridiculous physicality was part of that reality.
although i dont disagree with what you are saying, i have to ask..why didnt Ken shine in the Ufc since he was so physically superior and had such a great grapling game?instead, he struggled with guys like Felix Lee mitchell and his best submission win is over a brawler in Kimo...im not trying to bash Ken but his mma run wasnt exactly that amazing..given his background he should have dominated but he didnt come close..why?
I think Ken's knee was very messed up at UFC 3, probably making the Mitchell fight longer than it should. The fight was over literally in seconds once it hit the ground (22 seconds, just checked). Ken's takedown defense was great but I think his takedowns weren't as good as his defense.
His mma run was amazing (I count Pancrase with mma, but I think you're just talking UFC). Still- it's hard to look head and shoulders dominant over the top guys of the day, such as Royce, Severn, and Oleg. In some of the fights with those guys (2nd Royce, 1st Severn, Oleg) he did look physically superior.
I'd say Ken's best submission win in UFC may be Severn, and best submission wins in Pancrase likely against Funaki.
Hard to say Ken didn't shine or wasn't amazing- from fall 1993 to spring 1996 the only fighter one could really argue was better was Royce, and that is very debatable for a portion of that time.
ehh we will have to agree to disagree then..i dont look back and see Kens Ufc career as being that great tbh..he never won a tournament and was given a superfight against Royce in which he stalled like crazy..i give him props as he did submit Severn but from then on, his superfights were borefests..try to go back and watch his fight with Oleg or rematch with Severn...
i think Kens biggest chance at redemption was Ultimate ultimate 2..a stacked tournament and ken looked in great shape..his takedown of Brian johnson is probably one of the fastest double legs i have seen from a heavyweight..problem is, he didnt fight smart and broke his hand and we never got to see him versus Tank and Frye...with Shamrock, so many questions remain as to how good he really was..
People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.
Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan
Bry Bry -William C -Bry Bry -onepunchJD -William C -Carson's Corner radio show -Carlton Fist - Vale's body was already aging and failing him when he fought in NHB/MMA. Imagine how Vale vs Renzo, Vale vs Paulson, Paulson vs Renzo would have in Super Fight style without politics and striker or grappler WCC brackets. Vale had similar knowledge to Ken Shamrock and Hume at the time.
Is this post serious? Both Ken and especially Hume had way more knowledge at the time than Vale did ever.
There is no way Hume had more knowledge than Ken in the early 1990's during their Pancrase stints. Hume became a wizard after then, but watch all his Pancrase fights (yes, I know there is an asterisk next to Hume's fights with Ken and Sullivan). In Pancrase Hume (IMO) showed great wrestling but little submission, submission defense, or striking. Pancrase asked Ken to go scout Hume and his group actually. Not sure how Pancrase knew of him.
Vale didn't have the knowledge Ken did either. In fact Ken's first (Florida) tryout around June 1990- when he knew absolutely nothing about submissions (he had only seen the Funaki vs Suzuki worked 4/90 match afaik)- he grappled Vale and handled him easily.
William C -
Its a damn shame that only maybe a couple handfuls of posters here, yourself included, understand just how good Ken really was.
I realize the past decade has not been kind to Ken. But that is no excuse for ignorance... newer fans or not.
Ken could wrestle, and he knew his submissions very well. He also had real life experience on the streets, illegal organized bare knuckle fights, and toughman contests. There just weren't a whole lot of guys in the early 90's that were bringing that formidable of a package to the table. Among those who did, Ken was usually physically superior.
Ken was basically a monster among men, who intuitively understood how to physically impose himself in a fight. The grappling knowledge he gained was really just icing on the cake. I believe Ken got to a point where he might have thought too much of himself as a technician, and this limited him. He was absolutely ahead of his time on a technical level... but his off-the-charts physical presence was his best weapon.
Regardless - Bart Vale couldn't handle one side of Ken Shamrock.
No disrespect to Vale, because I realize the guy was promoting himself and making living. It was certainly a different era, in more ways than just the evolution of technique. But I agree it would be nice to get some real history from him, and many other guys from that era. It would only make them look better in the eyes of hardcore/old-school fans... and we are pretty much the only ones who give a shit anyways, LOL.
As far as Matt Hume... I would never say anything at all negative about that man. He is an MMA legend in his own right, and has a wealth of knowledge. I hold both Hume and Paulson in VERY high regard. ANY fighter should be honored to receive coaching from guys like this.
As fighters though... Ken was on a much higher level than Hume. Of course, Ken's ridiculous physicality was part of that reality.
although i dont disagree with what you are saying, i have to ask..why didnt Ken shine in the Ufc since he was so physically superior and had such a great grapling game?instead, he struggled with guys like Felix Lee mitchell and his best submission win is over a brawler in Kimo...im not trying to bash Ken but his mma run wasnt exactly that amazing..given his background he should have dominated but he didnt come close..why?
I think Ken's knee was very messed up at UFC 3, probably making the Mitchell fight longer than it should. The fight was over literally in seconds once it hit the ground (22 seconds, just checked). Ken's takedown defense was great but I think his takedowns weren't as good as his defense.
His mma run was amazing (I count Pancrase with mma, but I think you're just talking UFC). Still- it's hard to look head and shoulders dominant over the top guys of the day, such as Royce, Severn, and Oleg. In some of the fights with those guys (2nd Royce, 1st Severn, Oleg) he did look physically superior.
I'd say Ken's best submission win in UFC may be Severn, and best submission wins in Pancrase likely against Funaki.
Hard to say Ken didn't shine or wasn't amazing- from fall 1993 to spring 1996 the only fighter one could really argue was better was Royce, and that is very debatable for a portion of that time.
ehh we will have to agree to disagree then..i dont look back and see Kens Ufc career as being that great tbh..he never won a tournament and was given a superfight against Royce in which he stalled like crazy..i give him props as he did submit Severn but from then on, his superfights were borefests..try to go back and watch his fight with Oleg or rematch with Severn...
i think Kens biggest chance at redemption was Ultimate ultimate 2..a stacked tournament and ken looked in great shape..his takedown of Brian johnson is probably one of the fastest double legs i have seen from a heavyweight..problem is, he didnt fight smart and broke his hand and we never got to see him versus Tank and Frye...with Shamrock, so many questions remain as to how good he really was..
I gotcha, agree to disagree.
My thought is that looking back, Kens fights with Royce (2nd) or Oleg may not look like much today. But back then the Royce rematch was a paradigm shift in the sport, much like Frye vs Bitetti and Smith vs Coleman would become. These were fights that changed the game and the way it was viewed. It was huge at the time. And of course you have to ask- if Ken doesn't look that good in those fights, how good did Royce or Oleg look?
Ken did win a (2 day) 16 man tournament to win the KOP title.
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.
Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan
"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"
Would love to hear more on this.
When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?
Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.
So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.
If my posts seem like theyre missing words- for some reason the word s.t.y.l.e. doesnt show when I type it
William C -NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.
Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan
"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"
Would love to hear more on this.
When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?
Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.
So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.
Interesting stuff. It's cool learning new stuff on the pioneers. VU