Whatever happened to Bart Vale?

Underground
81

William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.


82

NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.



Your years are a bit off...

But yes, the 500 squats thing is famous!

As far as Ken... while there were some who had more applicable "knowledge" as far as submissions... It has been stated by myself and many others on the UG that Ken's strength and physicality was a big par of his success, in addition to "submissions" knowledge that was very good for the time, but not "the best".

Ken could also mrestle and was just a hard/tough man by any standards.

So when you take Ken's physical presence into consideration.... where would you have ranked him for that early to mid/late 90's era overall? Not purely "catch", but overall grappling and fighting ability regardless of specific discipline?

83

barttt

84

I remember seeing ads for his shoot fighting VHS tapes in Black Belt Magazine Phone Post 3.0

85

I went to a shootfighting seminar by one of Vale's instructors in the 1990s. It was TERRIBLE.

He had a solid kick, and was a tough guy, but he was GREATLY overhyped. His skills were white belt in terms of grappling.

86

HotSteppa - I went to a shootfighting seminar by one of Vale's instructors in the 1990s. It was TERRIBLE.

He had a solid kick, and was a tough guy, but he was GREATLY overhyped. His skills were white belt in terms of grappling.

Sounds about right.

87

NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.



"I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead."


Ken told me his work at the school was with Soranaka, not Gotch. He did receive some group instruction from Gotch while in the Japan dojos. We didn't get too into detail so I am unaware of what part Larry had in the whole setup (don't know the gentleman).

"When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken."

Who would have been a better catch representative in the early UFC's? There really wasn't anyone else there. Off the top of my head, the only other fighters in the UFC with any submission wrestling training at all would be the guys that trained under Ken (Delucia, Mezger, Bessac if we're talking 1993-1995).

Ken was at that Florida school in the summer of 1990. UFC #2 was March 1994.

As far as better sub guys than Ken from that lineage- that's very possible in theory, but who was able to prove it in competition- either by beating Ken or having a better fight resume than him? Performing techniques under pressure is a whole different ball game. I don't doubt there were some people who could teach the theory better. I don't believe Ken had much instruction before he was actually teaching in the Japan dojo.

From the names you posted- Jody I can't comment on because I am unfamiliar with that person. I saw Carl Malenko fight in Pride- he didn't do real well there but in his defense they fed him a murders row. I would have liked to have seen him given time to develop in MMA. But in MMA he did not prove to be better than Ken (superior submission wrestling).

As far as Suzuki- I don't think he was better than Ken either. They had 2 Pancrase matches that have a large asterisk next to the results (a bit on that in my interview). Ken and Suzuki had many similar opponents, Ken's resume is far better. Both their top runs seemed to go from 1993 to early 1996. Anyone who beat Suzuki, Ken either beat in a match or beat in his gym (as they were his fighters he trained). Suzuki never really beat an absolute top guy. Ken did extremely well against a run of top fighters of the day.

That's not a rib on Suzuki, I'm a huge fan of his (I actually wrote his HOF piece for Kirik). He's easily one of my favorite fighters.

Something you said in an earlier post-

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs..."

Sure he was. He had lots of submission wins over a variety of top fighters of the day. Many a heel hook, knee bar, ankle lock, RNC, and side choke (among others) were placed on good resisting opponents who were trying to hurt him. Submission wise, he's proven more than just about anyone from that time period. He was considered very expert at lower body subs.

88

William C - 
NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.



"I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead."


Ken told me his work at the school was with Soranaka, not Gotch. He did receive some group instruction from Gotch while in the Japan dojos. We didn't get too into detail so I am unaware of what part Larry had in the whole setup (don't know the gentleman).

"When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken."

Who would have been a better catch representative in the early UFC's? There really wasn't anyone else there. Off the top of my head, the only other fighters in the UFC with any submission wrestling training at all would be the guys that trained under Ken (Delucia, Mezger, Bessac if we're talking 1993-1995).

Ken was at that Florida school in the summer of 1990. UFC #2 was March 1994.

As far as better sub guys than Ken from that lineage- that's very possible in theory, but who was able to prove it in competition- either by beating Ken or having a better fight resume than him? Performing techniques under pressure is a whole different ball game. I don't doubt there were some people who could teach the theory better. I don't believe Ken had much instruction before he was actually teaching in the Japan dojo.

From the names you posted- Jody I can't comment on because I am unfamiliar with that person. I saw Carl Malenko fight in Pride- he didn't do real well there but in his defense they fed him a murders row. I would have liked to have seen him given time to develop in MMA. But in MMA he did not prove to be better than Ken (superior submission wrestling).

As far as Suzuki- I don't think he was better than Ken either. They had 2 Pancrase matches that have a large asterisk next to the results (a bit on that in my interview). Ken and Suzuki had many similar opponents, Ken's resume is far better. Both their top runs seemed to go from 1993 to early 1996. Anyone who beat Suzuki, Ken either beat in a match or beat in his gym (as they were his fighters he trained). Suzuki never really beat an absolute top guy. Ken did extremely well against a run of top fighters of the day.

That's not a rib on Suzuki, I'm a huge fan of his (I actually wrote his HOF piece for Kirik). He's easily one of my favorite fighters.

Something you said in an earlier post-

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs..."

Sure he was. He had lots of submission wins over a variety of top fighters of the day. Many a heel hook, knee bar, ankle lock, RNC, and side choke (among others) were placed on good resisting opponents who were trying to hurt him. Submission wise, he's proven more than just about anyone from that time period. He was considered very expert at lower body subs.

I could go back and fourth on this topic, but ill just say this, I'm an old nobody from Tampa who was in one of the last groups to train real catch under the malenko/gotch lineage.


I'll just leave it at that, PM me if you are interested in any catch/gotch/malenko information/history.

89

pattitude - William C, that Shamrock interview sounds really interesting!

Btw, good point about the puroresu vs. actual shootfighting distinction and why people tend to get annoyed with Vale.

Interview 99% done on my end (finally!)

Just need approval from Kirik on something to do with italics/formatting and then I can send him the whole shebang.

90

TTT

91

William C - 
pattitude - William C, that Shamrock interview sounds really interesting!

Btw, good point about the puroresu vs. actual shootfighting distinction and why people tend to get annoyed with Vale.

Interview 99% done on my end (finally!)

Just need approval from Kirik on something to do with italics/formatting and then I can send him the whole shebang.

Awesome news. Really look forward to reading the interview.

92

William C - 
pattitude - William C, that Shamrock interview sounds really interesting!

Btw, good point about the puroresu vs. actual shootfighting distinction and why people tend to get annoyed with Vale.

Interview 99% done on my end (finally!)

Just need approval from Kirik on something to do with italics/formatting and then I can send him the whole shebang.

TTT

93

NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.



"I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead."


Ken told me his work at the school was with Soranaka, not Gotch. He did receive some group instruction from Gotch while in the Japan dojos. We didn't get too into detail so I am unaware of what part Larry had in the whole setup (don't know the gentleman).

"When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken."

Who would have been a better catch representative in the early UFC's? There really wasn't anyone else there. Off the top of my head, the only other fighters in the UFC with any submission wrestling training at all would be the guys that trained under Ken (Delucia, Mezger, Bessac if we're talking 1993-1995).

Ken was at that Florida school in the summer of 1990. UFC #2 was March 1994.

As far as better sub guys than Ken from that lineage- that's very possible in theory, but who was able to prove it in competition- either by beating Ken or having a better fight resume than him? Performing techniques under pressure is a whole different ball game. I don't doubt there were some people who could teach the theory better. I don't believe Ken had much instruction before he was actually teaching in the Japan dojo.

From the names you posted- Jody I can't comment on because I am unfamiliar with that person. I saw Carl Malenko fight in Pride- he didn't do real well there but in his defense they fed him a murders row. I would have liked to have seen him given time to develop in MMA. But in MMA he did not prove to be better than Ken (superior submission wrestling).

As far as Suzuki- I don't think he was better than Ken either. They had 2 Pancrase matches that have a large asterisk next to the results (a bit on that in my interview). Ken and Suzuki had many similar opponents, Ken's resume is far better. Both their top runs seemed to go from 1993 to early 1996. Anyone who beat Suzuki, Ken either beat in a match or beat in his gym (as they were his fighters he trained). Suzuki never really beat an absolute top guy. Ken did extremely well against a run of top fighters of the day.

That's not a rib on Suzuki, I'm a huge fan of his (I actually wrote his HOF piece for Kirik). He's easily one of my favorite fighters.

Something you said in an earlier post-

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs..."

Sure he was. He had lots of submission wins over a variety of top fighters of the day. Many a heel hook, knee bar, ankle lock, RNC, and side choke (among others) were placed on good resisting opponents who were trying to hurt him. Submission wise, he's proven more than just about anyone from that time period. He was considered very expert at lower body subs.

I could go back and fourth on this topic, but ill just say this, I'm an old nobody from Tampa who was in one of the last groups to train real catch under the malenko/gotch lineage.


I'll just leave it at that, PM me if you are interested in any catch/gotch/malenko information/history.

So...

I'm sure there were better ""catch as catch can guys"" back then, as you said...

... But LOL NONE of them were going to kick Ken's ass in any type of real fight....... right?

Ken doesn't really get lumped into "Catch" very often.

He was already a tough guy who could wrestle and was a physical monster.

Ken himself gives credit of his "Submissions" knowledge to Funaki and his other Japanese teachers.

Whoever their influences were is another matter.

94

anything in japan at that time period regarding mma, pancrase, uwf, shoot fighting, etc was mostly catch based. Ever notice the movements? Not much guard work, lots of leg locks.

Funaki is Fuji's student... fuji was one of gotchs top student/ instructor.Karl gotch is known as the GOD of wrestling in japan for a reason.

I encourage you or anybody to read up on the roots of mma( not the distorted gracie bjj version), shoot fighting, japan etc.

People were doing double wrist locks loooooonnnngggg before it was renamed a "kimura"

95

NKcell - anything in japan at that time period regarding mma, pancrase, uwf, shoot fighting, etc was mostly catch based. Ever notice the movements? Not much guard work, lots of leg locks.

Funaki is Fuji's student... fuji was one of gotchs top student/ instructor.Karl gotch is known as the GOD of wrestling in japan for a reason.

I encourage you or anybody to read up on the roots of mma( not the distorted gracie bjj version), shoot fighting, japan etc.

People were doing double wrist locks loooooonnnngggg before it was renamed a "kimura"

I agree with all that.

96

NKcell - anything in japan at that time period regarding mma, pancrase, uwf, shoot fighting, etc was mostly catch based. Ever notice the movements? Not much guard work, lots of leg locks.

Funaki is Fuji's student... fuji was one of gotchs top student/ instructor.Karl gotch is known as the GOD of wrestling in japan for a reason.

I encourage you or anybody to read up on the roots of mma( not the distorted gracie bjj version), shoot fighting, japan etc.

People were doing double wrist locks loooooonnnngggg before it was renamed a "kimura"

Absolutely.

My point was that Ken isn't really known as a "Catch wrestler". So to say there were better catch guys is kind of obvious - respectfully.

I do think the Ken was the best and most successful representative of that for the early days of MMA/NHB.

He beat the best guys is both Japan and the US, opened a school here, and gave exposure to a submissions system other than GJJ. He made a huge contribution to the MMA learning curve, and that only looks good for his lineage.

My good friend and instructor Satch Williams (RIP) was not necessarily known as the top Kaijukenbo expert. There were higher ranked black belts. But he was likely Kaijukenbo's best fighter, and I'm pretty sure its first multiple world champion. He was a born fighter, very strong, and almost unbelievably fast for a HW. I have never, ever, seen someone cover distance as quickly as Satch could. It was unreal.

My slightly off topic point is: There is more to a fighter's success that just technical expertise. When good technique is combined with other physical and mental attributes, the result can be a sum greater than the whole of its parts.

I believe this was the case with Ken Shamrock in the 90's, and partly explains why he was able to rise through the ranks in Japan so quickly, among guys who had been doing it longer.

What do you guys consider Ken to be a representative of? Catch. Shoot Fighting? None of the above??

97

onepunchJD - 
NKcell - anything in japan at that time period regarding mma, pancrase, uwf, shoot fighting, etc was mostly catch based. Ever notice the movements? Not much guard work, lots of leg locks.

Funaki is Fuji's student... fuji was one of gotchs top student/ instructor.Karl gotch is known as the GOD of wrestling in japan for a reason.

I encourage you or anybody to read up on the roots of mma( not the distorted gracie bjj version), shoot fighting, japan etc.

People were doing double wrist locks loooooonnnngggg before it was renamed a "kimura"

Absolutely.

My point was that Ken isn't really known as a "Catch wrestler". So to say there were better catch guys is kind of obvious - respectfully.

I do think the Ken was the best and most successful representative of that for the early days of MMA/NHB.

He beat the best guys is both Japan and the US, opened a school here, and gave exposure to a submissions system other than GJJ. He made a huge contribution to the MMA learning curve, and that only looks good for his lineage.

My good friend and instructor Satch Williams (RIP) was not necessarily known as the top Kaijukenbo expert. There were higher ranked black belts. But he was likely Kaijukenbo's best fighter, and I'm pretty sure its first multiple world champion. He was a born fighter, very strong, and almost unbelievably fast for a HW. I have never, ever, seen someone cover distance as quickly as Satch could. It was unreal.

My slightly off topic point is: There is more to a fighter's success that just technical expertise. When good technique is combined with other physical and mental attributes, the result can be a sum greater than the whole of its parts.

I believe this was the case with Ken Shamrock in the 90's, and partly explains why he was able to rise through the ranks in Japan so quickly, among guys who had been doing it longer.

What do you guys consider Ken to be a representative of? Catch. Shoot Fighting? None of the above??

Ken represented brawling and leg locks, with steak n chicken thrown in.

In all seriousness, its fun to watch the two Ken vs Bas fights now when you consider Ken has severely tarnished his legacy and Bas is revered. Ken was a hybrid american wrestler with Japanese catch training.

98

Time.

99

clarenceworley - 
onepunchJD - 
NKcell - anything in japan at that time period regarding mma, pancrase, uwf, shoot fighting, etc was mostly catch based. Ever notice the movements? Not much guard work, lots of leg locks.

Funaki is Fuji's student... fuji was one of gotchs top student/ instructor.Karl gotch is known as the GOD of wrestling in japan for a reason.

I encourage you or anybody to read up on the roots of mma( not the distorted gracie bjj version), shoot fighting, japan etc.

People were doing double wrist locks loooooonnnngggg before it was renamed a "kimura"

Absolutely.

My point was that Ken isn't really known as a "Catch wrestler". So to say there were better catch guys is kind of obvious - respectfully.

I do think the Ken was the best and most successful representative of that for the early days of MMA/NHB.

He beat the best guys is both Japan and the US, opened a school here, and gave exposure to a submissions system other than GJJ. He made a huge contribution to the MMA learning curve, and that only looks good for his lineage.

My good friend and instructor Satch Williams (RIP) was not necessarily known as the top Kaijukenbo expert. There were higher ranked black belts. But he was likely Kaijukenbo's best fighter, and I'm pretty sure its first multiple world champion. He was a born fighter, very strong, and almost unbelievably fast for a HW. I have never, ever, seen someone cover distance as quickly as Satch could. It was unreal.

My slightly off topic point is: There is more to a fighter's success that just technical expertise. When good technique is combined with other physical and mental attributes, the result can be a sum greater than the whole of its parts.

I believe this was the case with Ken Shamrock in the 90's, and partly explains why he was able to rise through the ranks in Japan so quickly, among guys who had been doing it longer.

What do you guys consider Ken to be a representative of? Catch. Shoot Fighting? None of the above??

Ken represented brawling and leg locks, with steak n chicken thrown in.

In all seriousness, its fun to watch the two Ken vs Bas fights now when you consider Ken has severely tarnished his legacy and Bas is revered. Ken was a hybrid american wrestler with Japanese catch training.

Yeah...

Legacies are a funny and sometimes sad thing.

Bas had 2 UFC fights, one of which was controversial. He retired before his body gave out.

Ken had more MMA success and more big time fghts, but damaged his legacy by fighting WAAAAY past the time when he should have called it.

Yet Ken was , IMO, straight up the better fighter of the two.

Too bad newer fans don't research history more.

100

jbbarne - 
William C - 
pattitude - William C, that Shamrock interview sounds really interesting!

Btw, good point about the puroresu vs. actual shootfighting distinction and why people tend to get annoyed with Vale.

Interview 99% done on my end (finally!)

Just need approval from Kirik on something to do with italics/formatting and then I can send him the whole shebang.

Awesome news. Really look forward to reading the interview.

I believe part 1 (of 7) gets posted Monday.