Whatever happened to Bart Vale?

Underground
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jbbarne - William C - it would be cool to see you get to interview Vale. The Shamrock one sounds like a good read. I know Vale was/is a big slow guy, but when I was younger I thought he was the coolest guy alive lol. Maybe it's because I liked pro wrestling as a kid. The Shootfighting stuff looked much more impressive than wrestling in the US. Anyone think he could have had a good MMA career if he wasn't already too old when MMA started picking up?

"William C - it would be cool to see you get to interview Vale."

You're gonna see it.
Interview was done, but like Ken it was a long interview so will take me a while to transcribe (day job is pretty hectic).

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NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - 
William C - 
NKcell - People always hated Bart valet on here, for his time he was pretty legitimate.


Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs, he wasn't the best " young boy" at malenkos as they use to say. He was good at the exercises this is why gotch and Larry sent him to japan"

Would love to hear more on this.

When you say Malenko's, was that a gym in Florida that was run with Soranaka?

Ken told me Dean Malenko showed him a UWF tape (4/90 show), which interested Ken in going into that Ken had one tryout in the states- at Soranaka's in Florida. Malenko arranged that. Ken at this time (summer 1990) had no submission knowledge. Ken had to do a tryout there which was basically a number of squats, then he had to spar with 3 or 4 people. Vale was one of the sparring partners. Ken said he went through that tryout and sparring very easily, so Soranaka (not Gotch or Larry) arranged for a tryout in Japan.

So per Ken's side he would have been the best there on that particular day. It didn't sound like he spent much time at that gym at all.

Yes I'm talking about Larry and gotches old school in tampa. Yes it's 500 squats within 10 or 15mins was gotches mark.

I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead.

When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken.



"I personally don't know who contacted him first, but it was Larry's school and the shooter work was with gotch who sent you over to fuji if you were worth a shit. So if dean did make contact with him first it was still Larry and gotch to give the go ahead."


Ken told me his work at the school was with Soranaka, not Gotch. He did receive some group instruction from Gotch while in the Japan dojos. We didn't get too into detail so I am unaware of what part Larry had in the whole setup (don't know the gentleman).

"When I say he wasn't the best, I'm speaking in terms as a representative of catch in the early ufcs. There were better catch as catch can guys under gotch/fuji and Larry than ken shamrock, as you stated he was there in 90...ufc 2 was 92??...short time and he was at the house only a short time also.

Carl malenko, even Jody, suzuki. Etc were all better sub guys than ken."

Who would have been a better catch representative in the early UFC's? There really wasn't anyone else there. Off the top of my head, the only other fighters in the UFC with any submission wrestling training at all would be the guys that trained under Ken (Delucia, Mezger, Bessac if we're talking 1993-1995).

Ken was at that Florida school in the summer of 1990. UFC #2 was March 1994.

As far as better sub guys than Ken from that lineage- that's very possible in theory, but who was able to prove it in competition- either by beating Ken or having a better fight resume than him? Performing techniques under pressure is a whole different ball game. I don't doubt there were some people who could teach the theory better. I don't believe Ken had much instruction before he was actually teaching in the Japan dojo.

From the names you posted- Jody I can't comment on because I am unfamiliar with that person. I saw Carl Malenko fight in Pride- he didn't do real well there but in his defense they fed him a murders row. I would have liked to have seen him given time to develop in MMA. But in MMA he did not prove to be better than Ken (superior submission wrestling).

As far as Suzuki- I don't think he was better than Ken either. They had 2 Pancrase matches that have a large asterisk next to the results (a bit on that in my interview). Ken and Suzuki had many similar opponents, Ken's resume is far better. Both their top runs seemed to go from 1993 to early 1996. Anyone who beat Suzuki, Ken either beat in a match or beat in his gym (as they were his fighters he trained). Suzuki never really beat an absolute top guy. Ken did extremely well against a run of top fighters of the day.

That's not a rib on Suzuki, I'm a huge fan of his (I actually wrote his HOF piece for Kirik). He's easily one of my favorite fighters.

Something you said in an earlier post-

"Ken shamrock was never THAT good at subs..."

Sure he was. He had lots of submission wins over a variety of top fighters of the day. Many a heel hook, knee bar, ankle lock, RNC, and side choke (among others) were placed on good resisting opponents who were trying to hurt him. Submission wise, he's proven more than just about anyone from that time period. He was considered very expert at lower body subs.

I could go back and fourth on this topic, but ill just say this, I'm an old nobody from Tampa who was in one of the last groups to train real catch under the malenko/gotch lineage.


I'll just leave it at that, PM me if you are interested in any catch/gotch/malenko information/history.

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