to a degree as well he indirectly influenced MMA ...an argument could be made and nitpicking on that subject could be made. before him ( at least to my knowledge USA mainstream wise) i know of no other pro wrestler that conformed MA with wrestling.
Stan (btw) was 5'8" - 270 lbs with a 56 inch chest and 23 inch arms. He once won about 800 matches in a row. Wladek was no where come to his skill level.
Catch is a cool style, but honestly most of what once made it unique has already been absorbed into BJJ. BJJ is a constantly evolving style that has no compunctions about adding whatever it can to make itself more effective.
In MMA, the only dude that I can think of that really practices something that looks like Catch is Josh Barnett. His ground work against Nogeira especially really is a great example of the differences between the two styles. Sakuraba uses a lot of BJJ in his style, but I think he is more Catch based. Gomi definitely looks like a Catch guy in his submission wrestling matches, but his ground game hasn't really looked too amazing in MMA, at least since he discovered that he could be a good boxer.
why is everything either/or to some people
Holy shit, nothing brings out the keyboard warriors like the subject of Catch Rassling.
It usually goes like this....
"Farmer Burns would have Boston Crabbed Helio Gracie"
"I have a Catch Rasslin manuscript from 1928 that shows a triangle choke (actually called a figure-four strangle)."
"Catch rassling is the original BJJ"
"Sadly there are no true Catch rassling schools anymore, cuz if there were.....blah blah blah"
"But Josh Barnett....blah blah blah"
scuffler -supersaiyan -scuffler - Since you guys seem to be kind of new to this histroy did you know that an aging Wladek Zbyszko grappled to a draw with a young Helio Gracie while wearing a gi for the first time in his life? Wladek was the not so great brother of the great Stanislaus Zbyszko.
Fred "Grubby" Grubmier (carnival shooter legend) once humiliated Wladek, in Wladek's prime.
would Stanislaus have any relations with Larry Zbyszko from the old AWA org by any chance...? is this a family line is basically what i am asking.
ahhh ok cool man :)
No, Larry was of no relation. Larry took the name Zbyszko as a tribute to Stan, just like Karl Gotch did with Frank Gotch.
CECCHINE CATCH WRASTLE.
NO ONE CAN DEFEAT.
(turns off laptop and runs out of room)
scuffler - Where are you guys getting your history from?
For starters Maeda wrestled literally hundreds of cacc matches on at least 4 different continents. Some were works, some were shoots. He lost several of these, not just the two everybody knows about and talks about because they are in his biography.
Frank Gotch trained submissions 1 hour every single day with Martin Burns on top of his other 6 or 7 hours of cardio and wrestling.
Nearly every top pro of the early era (1900 - 1930) was skilled to some degree in submission wrestling and yes it was cacc.
Before that the dominate style was collar & Elbow and most of those guys like Ed Decker and the cross-over star Evan Lewis (the original strangler) were also somewhat skilled in submission. I have documentation of Evan Lewis beating a Japanese jiu-jitsu guy with a heel-hook, wasn't called that but that's what it was.
good stuff and interesting lemme ask you STeven Regal seems to be a catch versed grappler . have noticed his unorthodox game compared to EVERYONE else and it clearly something different ( an exception could be made for Fit Finlay as well).
he does weird looking subs and pain holds with rippin and most of his holds are or look like theyre to control his opponent. if isnt catch then its DEFinitely submission wrestling OLD school. bEing that he is from Wigan England there is alot of history with wrestling in that (and surrounding regions)
what exactly is that type of wrestling if it isnt catch ..specifically?
007 - Holy shit, nothing brings out the keyboard warriors like the subject of Catch Rassling.
It usually goes like this....
"Farmer Burns would have Boston Crabbed Helio Gracie"
"I have a Catch Rasslin manuscript from 1928 that shows a triangle choke (actually called a figure-four strangle)."
"Catch rassling is the original BJJ"
"Sadly there are no true Catch rassling schools anymore, cuz if there were.....blah blah blah"
"But Josh Barnett....blah blah blah"
yeah it is confusing and complex for some reason to pinpoint what is what....will it ever become full form as a whole.??would be nice :) whatever it is i will take it with gold and run with it --its all can u do to research and ask around to hopefully eradicate the very issues and continous interwining tangibles u listed above
007 -
"Farmer Burns would have Boston Crabbed Helio Gracie"
don't know about the boston crab, he probably would have jusy carried him about 10 minutes and then put the hammer down like Kimura did
de braco -007 -
"Farmer Burns would have Boston Crabbed Helio Gracie"
don't know about the boston crab, he probably would have jusy carried him about 10 minutes and then put the hammer down like Kimura did
LOL, Great stuff!
Boy, was Kimura playing with him in the video or what....domination.....
supersaiyan,
as far as Regal, I think his real name is Matthews not sure, he wrestled in what I believe was the last carnival with an AT show when he was in his mid teens. Not sure who all he trained with but I'm sure it links to catch and probably Wigin catch.
I know that Adrian Street, former pro wrestler with some submission skills, learned from Mike Dimetri. Don't know if there is any connection.
Parlati's going to shine his light of knowledge on the Robinson thread at the request of supersayian so you better get over there scuff
joshjitsu -fiercedragon - CATCH>bjj
Obviously since all the Catch guys are winning ADCC every year...
Catch isn't a hair on the nutsack of Bjj... Catch guys go back to your hole.
Grappling is grappling. The differences between arts is quit simple. the rule set.
There is no 'superior' arts. Just different point of view for the for the very same goal.
saying cacc>bjj or the contrary is just dumb.
Sakuraba is a cacc guy, most of the japanease mma fighters came from shooto and shooto is very influenced by cacc.
Catch is obviously superior. Nobody respects a buttflopper.
FieryErmine:
"Catch is a cool style, but honestly most of what once made it unique has already been absorbed into BJJ. BJJ is a constantly evolving style that has no compunctions about adding whatever it can to make itself more effective. In MMA, the only dude that I can think of that really practices something that looks like Catch is Josh Barnett. His ground work against Nogeira especially really is a great example of the differences between the two styles. Sakuraba uses a lot of BJJ in his style, but I think he is more Catch based. Gomi definitely looks like a Catch guy in his submission wrestling matches, but his ground game hasn't really looked too amazing in MMA, at least since he discovered that he could be a good boxer."
***BJJ was full of CATCH from day one - since Maeda's losses to catch wrestlers (as Count Koma) resulted in him learning some cacc before going to Brazil...have to chuckle whenever I hear someone talk about the DOUBLE WRISTLOCK as the "kimura" , for example - since he (Kimura) learned the hold from Maeda - who learned it from some catch wrestler over in Europe.
But the fact is, cacc is REAL - and it's highly effective. But here's a bigger fact and a big hint...take a cue form a guy like Sakuraba: his knowledge of judo/jiu jitsu served his CACC very well...
he could do it all. Top game, bottom game - the whole game.
This is why cacc was and still is popular in Japan, just a little copy-past :
Although catch wrestling did not normally include kicks and blows, it is credited as one of the two disciplines involved in one of the 20th century's first major cross-cultural clash of styles in Martial Arts, occurring between the American catch wrestler Ad Santel and the Japanese Tokugoro Ito, a 5th degree black belt in Judo.
The match in 1914 was one between two prime representatives of their respective crafts, Santel was the World Light Heavyweight Champion in catch wrestling while Ito claimed to be the World Judo Champion. Santel defeated Ito and proclaimed himself World Judo Champion. The response from Jigoro Kano's Kodokan was swift and came in the form of another challenger, 4th degree black belt Daisuke Sakai. Santel, however, still defeated the Kodokan Judo representative. The Kodokan tried to stop the hooker by sending men like 5th degree black belt Reijiro Nagata (who Santel defeated by TKO). Santel also drew with 5th degree black belt Hikoo Shoji. The challenge matches stopped after Santel gave up on the claim of being the World Judo Champion in 1921 in order to pursue a career in full time professional wrestling. Although Tokugoro Ito avenged his loss to Santel with a choke, thus setting the record between them at 1-1, official Kodokan representatives proved unable to imitate Ito's success. Just as Ito was the only Japanese judoka to overcome Santel, Santel was ironically the only Western catch-wrestler on record as having a win over Ito, who also regularly challenged other grappling styles.
The impact of these performances on Japan was immense. The Japanese were fascinated by the European form of catch wrestling and a steady stream of Japanese fighters traveled to Europe in order to either participate in various tournaments or to learn catch wrestling at European schools such as Billy Riley's Snake Pit in Wigan, England.
Neither is "better".
One or the other might be better for you.
Mechanically and psychologically they are very different. So depending on the person one might appeal to them more and work better for them than the other.
Victor Parlati
BJJ was full of CATCH from day one - since Maeda's losses to catch wrestlers (as Count Koma) resulted in him learning some cacc before going to Brazil...have to chuckle whenever I hear someone talk about the DOUBLE WRISTLOCK as the "kimura" , for example - since he (Kimura) learned the hold from Maeda - who learned it from some catch wrestler over in Europe.
But the fact is, cacc is REAL - and it's highly effective. But here's a bigger fact and a big hint...take a cue form a guy like Sakuraba: his knowledge of judo/jiu jitsu served his CACC very well...
he could do it all. Top game, bottom game - the whole game.
I'm sure maeda knew the double wrist when he left japan.That's a universal cross cultural hold common to almost every style of wrestling,as a throw and ground control/submission.