BeerMuscles - Considering that SHooto comes from Catch, its not crazy to say that those who come from Shooto would have a strong Catch influence. Is it their only influence? No. Its still there however. Yes, Saku has trained BJJ before, he's still mainly a CACC wrestler. Thats like telling me that one the countless BJJ'ists who've done some Judo should be considered a Judoka instead of a BJJ'ist or that the late Rolls Gracie should be considered a Sambo practictioner because he practiced and participated in Sambo.
Yet you want to claim Brock Lesnar is influenced by catch.
Erik Paulson lives in California. Brocks main instructor in Minnesota is Greg Nelson who is a BJJ blackbelt (same as Paulson btw) yet because he wore a T-shirt, he is suddenly "influenced by catch". Brock paid out of his own pocket to fly out Comprido to train him.
And yes Shooto is strongly influenced by catch but that was years ago and has changed since. Many of the Shooto gyms now are mostly BJJ gyms. Paraestra, Purebred, Killerbee of the top of my head. To simply claim Shooto gym = catch wrestling is simplifying
I have nothing against catch but its pretty lame that you guys feel the need to label anyone who has ever trained with or under a catch guy as "influenced" by catch wrestling. Yet when Sakuraba spent quite a bit of time with BHJJ it doesnt mean anything. Or when Sato flew to brazil to train years before his Shooto career took off
Naughty Gorilla - I don't know if he's a catch guy, his base is judo and BJJ. But he is with Nippon Top Team now (Imanari and Kitaoka) who obviously have a jap sub grappling/catch background. It's obvious in the way they give up position for subs. And you can see Aoki do that sometimes (with mixed results)
"Aoki is strongly influenced by catch how? He is with Paraestra Tokyo and Yuki Nakai (BJJ blackbelt) and of course judo"
He isnt a catch guy. You would be reaching pretty hard to label him a "catch" guy. Nippon Top Team isnt really a gym, its those guys who meet up to train. Its the same as when Yoshida, Kikuta, Okami, Mach, Takase used to train together even though they had their own gyms
And yes Shooto is strongly influenced by catch but that was years ago and has changed since. Many of the Shooto gyms now are mostly BJJ gyms.
I disagree with your implication. I think the correct forumlation is that many shooto gyms have encorporated BJJ into their game. IE when you see them do triangle chokes, arm bars from the guard, take the back, sweep, they are doing BJJ now
But when they are doing doubles and single, working cross faces and neck cranks, going for leg locks, etc they are still showing the catch that influenced the development of the style
Paulson is a BJJ black belt, but he also incorporates catch material in his CSW
I have nothing against catch but its pretty lame that you guys feel the need to label anyone who has ever trained with or under a catch guy as "influenced" by catch wrestling. Yet when Sakuraba spent quite a bit of time with BHJJ it doesnt mean anything. Or when Sato flew to brazil to train years before his Shooto career took off
Lol!!
You have nothing against cacc but your not able to give cacc any credits lol!!
BTW, how many years of cacc training do you have and who was/is your instructor?? Please dont tell me i'm arguing with a keyboard warrior...
I never said Brock, Shooto or anybody else was "only cacc", but influenced by CACC. Yes Saku and Sato have been greatly influenced by BJJ, I would never dispute that. Its just crazy how some on the BJJ side will make them out to be BJJ artists, as if their years of CACC doesn't count.
Damn, I remember reading about the Wladek-Helio Gracie match. According to the story Wladek was in his early 50's and not too familiar with the gi game.
"I think the correct forumlation is that many shooto gyms have encorporated BJJ into their game. IE when you see them do triangle chokes, arm bars from the guard, take the back, sweep, they are doing BJJ now"
True but that doesnt mean what i wrote was wrong. Enson Inoue for example is not a catch guy who brought in BJJ. He is a BJJ guy who started a Shooto gym that is now several gyms. There are a few of those Shooto gyms around.
""Also, it took PRIME Saku 90minutes to put Royce away...and he lost the rematch. He was also TRAINWRECKED by BJJ guy Ricardo Arona and even Saku admitted that he lost the Allen Goes fight. "
I just had some fun with a BJJ guy the other day. First 5 seconds into our match and I caught him with a toe hold. Then I tapped him about 5 times within a few minutes, and the submissions I used was nothing more than toe holds and a few footlocks. he had to pause and immedtaley re-evaluate what was happening. Too mcuh inbreeding if you ask me.
BJJ guys love to stick their feet in places where they shouldn't, and too much cultism, two criticisms I have of BJJ.
Hillary - I train BJJ and have pretty consistently for almost 3 1/2 years. About six months ago my gym lucked upon Catch legend Billy Robinson. I have incorporated a little of his stuff into my game--mostly small detail changes on techniques I was already doing. It has made my training partners more complete grapplers and has definitely improved their standup game. I still say most of my grappling (90%) is traditional BJJ, but a combination of the both--instead of one or the other--has been great.
Great attitude Hillary,and the right one,learn it all.
Its an incomplete system of fancy holds. Sure a big strong wrestler can catch a beginner BJJer will maybe get a submission but when it comes down to it BJJ has reigned supreme in every modern freestyle submission grappling competition that exists.
The nuances of strategical positional dominance, being able to be dangerous from your back (guard) and learning how to properly pass the guard, moving your hips to gain leverage, applying chokes all come from BJJ or maybe judo newaza.
Still so much bullshit about catch floating around out there, huh? Like, you know...it's crap, it's incomplete, if you're not a huge dude you can't make it work - yadda, yadda, yadda.
Still so much bullshit. But that's okay. Makes things all the more fun when you CATCH somebody with something that they had no clue was coming.
Again, for all the nuthuggers wherever you are: crosstraining makes you a better fighter.
How many people do catch? where are the schools?, are there many?.... I live near Wigan the birth place of catch and I only know of one. Also are there Catch as Catch Can submission championships? how many tornies are there?.... surely this is what would determin the strength of the art, lots of tornies like BJJ and Judo have. Where I live there is far more Judo and BJJ... but as I said there is little in the way of Catch.... although I must say there is a couple of Catch wrestlers that I know that are very good. I have done bjj for 12 years and also Judo so I know of a ton of good BJJ guys and Judo guys and also some good wrestlers, but realy I only know a couple of Catch guys. The guys I know are Darren Morris who is very very good and also Tom Blackledge who is a coach on TUF at present, he fights MMA out of Wolfs Lair, he is also good aswell, I think they have practiced many styles but Catch is there main one.
Yes one is better. BJJ is better, as it is proven in grappling competion year after year in ADCC. Those rules are very fair to all sides and styles of grappling and BJJ comes out on top every year at every weight class. Please tell me how someone can logically debate this otherwise.
This is not to say however that there are not solid techniques from Catch that one can incorporate into their grappling game.
This was the first grappling series I learned when I began training in 1999/2000 at a JKD gym. We called it Series 1. I think it's fantastic and has its merits but I still think BJJ is a far superior art for the aforementioned reasons.