Who cares! grappling is grappling.
e. kaye - Ummm, that Japanese speak Japanese. Maybe that is why.
The locks are not called Kimura or Americana by the Japanese, in any language.
My take is that if you're starting off from scratch, go with BJJ.
If you've wrestled competitively relatively recently and still have most of your skills and attributes, then Catch may be better suited for you.
Bobby Lupo -
I hear that in Brazil they call Brazillian jiu Jitsu: Jiu Jitsu.
Anyway, I believe that Fit Finlay is a legit catch guy. I think his father teaches wrestling in Ireland and Steve Regal (Williams) has a well documented past as a carnie wrestler and endorser of that Matt Furey Chimpanzee Workout. WWE guys are quick to point out that Regal and Finlay are legit tough guys.
that's gold,Lupo,gold!
"My point is that ADCC is highly specialized. If given the chance, a BJJBB will just hold guard all day until someone makes a mistake, then BAM...an armbar!
BJJ has a very sophisticated, yet simple ground game, which is something Catch doesn't focus on, which is why BJJ wins.
In the street or in MMA, BJJ gets a little weak against Catch, but in sport JJ or sub grappling, BJJ is awesome because they don't have to worry about getting struck."
..........................
***THIS is a very interesting insight. Again, I keep finding myself turning to Sakuraba's game to figure all this out. I've come a long way in my thinking, Mat Pimp, after really watching and rewatching Sak's instructional (and his fights) countless times - and taking his stuff to the mat. He just instinctively knows when to wrestle and when to jiu jitsu - and he's seamless with it.
The more I think about it, perhaps the unsung hero (or the one who gets praised but not nearly praised enough) is Karl Gotch. If you watch his student Yoshiaki Fugiwara's vids enough times - you also see the flow from cacc to jiu jitsu again-and-again. Gotch clearly gave cacc to the Japanese - and must have obviously took back some judo/jiu jitsu.
Veerrry interesting.
IatskevichFightClub - Rules make style, that is simple as that.
A sub is a sub, there is only some differences in 'mind set' like in cacc we dont pull guard on purpose, we are top game specialists. We train the guard too, but not as often as bjjm but we train more take down than the avarage bjj club ect...
Please guys, read that article made by my friend and coach Kris Iatskevich.
http://damagecontrolmma.com/modern-catch-as-catch-can-written-by-kris-iatskevich/
The biggest difference is that no CAC wrestler has won anything of significance in modern times...
Already In Use - *Obviously since all the Catch guys are winning ADCC every year...
Catch isn't a hair on the nutsack of Bjj... Catch guys go back to your hole.*
Yeah, and look how dominant the Gracies were over Catch Wrestler, Sakuraba. Oh, and we all know how BJJ BB, Frank Mir defeated Lesnar in their much anticipated rematch.
LMAO, Lesner is a CACC wrestler now ? Really ?
Also, it took PRIME Saku 90minutes to put Royce away...and he lost the rematch. He was also TRAINWRECKED by BJJ guy Ricardo Arona and even Saku admitted that he lost the Allen Goes fight.
s98ronin The biggest difference is that no CAC wrestler has won anything of significance in modern times...
I will give you some names, maybe you will reckonize some of them, they are cacc guy or strongly influenced byb cacc.
Sakuraba, Fujita, Minowa, Shamrock, Severn,imanari, aoki, Barnett, Paulson, Kitaoka(won the ADCC japan trials this year) and a lot more, i'm just tired...
You should make some research before posting something, dont forget that cacc is alive and healthy in japan (with shooto and pankrase), that's not the case in north amarica tough...
Anyway, that will turn again in a pissing contest and i'm tired of this. I'm out of this thread.
Train hard, stay safe!!
Never mind that he wrecked 4 Gracies in MMA and noone had ever done so.. pretty much singlehandedly writing the blueprint for every future MMA fighter to beat jiujitsu guys..
"Also, it took PRIME Saku 90minutes to put Royce away...and he lost the rematch. He was also TRAINWRECKED by BJJ guy Ricardo Arona and even Saku admitted that he lost the Allen Goes fight. "
allan goes.. who frank shamrock fought to a draw with 6 months of non-BJJ sub training...
I train BJJ and have pretty consistently for almost 3 1/2 years. About six months ago my gym lucked upon Catch legend Billy Robinson. I have incorporated a little of his stuff into my game--mostly small detail changes on techniques I was already doing. It has made my training partners more complete grapplers and has definitely improved their standup game. I still say most of my grappling (90%) is traditional BJJ, but a combination of the both--instead of one or the other--has been great.
Rolls Gracie supposedly learned the Americana from an American wrestler. Hence, the name Americana. Eddie Bravo who gained fame by submitting a Gracie via triangle, introduced the guillotine (a folkstyle wrestling move) to the BJJ world. In short BJJ stylists seem open to learning new techniques, from whomever. They seem less open to adopting the wrestlers perspective on motion, understandable why, it would destroy distinctive characteristic of BJJ, position over motion. Wrestling is predicated on motion to archive dominant position, much like boxing. Many wrestling moves can be used as subs (witness the guillotine) or as transitions to a dominant position from which to apply subs (cradle). I prefer wrestlings perspective over BJJ (though I like BJJ). I do think there's just too much evidence of the validity of wrestlings undergirding principles over BJJ. The whole Western Way of War is predicated on motion, maneuver to bring weapons to bear. This is how to fight, be it on land, air water or, the mat.Waits for Wrath of Makena to descend like a thuderbolt from the sky!
There's pic of Brock Lesnar sporting a CACC shirt on this page if you scroll down.
http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/department19.cfm
He may not consider himself a full out Catch Wrestler, but he does recognize that its a part of his roots through Erik Paulson and CSW.
Also, I think people forget that ALOT of grappling in Japan is Catch based like Pancrase, Shooto, etc... Guys like Rumina Sato, Minowa, Imanari and Kitaoka come from CACC backrounds. Though Kitaoka now holds rank in BJJ, he and many of his stable mates still train with Suzuki and wear the Pancrase logo on their shorts.
"Sakuraba, Fujita, Minowa, Shamrock, Severn,imanari, aoki, Barnett, Paulson, Kitaoka(won the ADCC japan trials this year) and a lot more, i'm just tired...
You should make some research before posting something, dont forget that cacc is alive and healthy in japan (with shooto and pankrase), that's not the case in north amarica tough..."
You are simply throwing out names because you assume that because they train at a Shooto gym then they must have a catch background
Aoki is strongly influenced by catch how? He is with Paraestra Tokyo and Yuki Nakai (BJJ blackbelt) and of course judo
Funny how you want lots of fighters to be influenced by catch yet you dont want to give BJJ credit. What was Sakuraba doing at Beverly Hills jiu jitsu club for example?
- Both folkstyle and free style wrestling come from the old catch-as-catch-can wrestling... and no one in their right mind doesn't think wrestling is an important and valuable skill
2. In the US, do you know how many BJJ people started off with a background in wrestling?
It isn't about "best" or "better" or any of that crap, but there are real usable skills to be learned from catch, and for those with wrestling base it makes a lot of sense to look into it
Considering that SHooto comes from Catch, its not crazy to say that those who come from Shooto would have a strong Catch influence. Is it their only influence? No. Its still there however. Yes, Saku has trained BJJ before, he's still mainly a CACC wrestler. Thats like telling me that one the countless BJJ'ists who've done some Judo should be considered a Judoka instead of a BJJ'ist or that the late Rolls Gracie should be considered a Sambo practictioner because he practiced and participated in Sambo.
BeerMuscles - Considering that SHooto comes from Catch, its not crazy to say that those who come from Shooto would have a strong Catch influence. Is it their only influence? No. Its still there however. Yes, Saku has trained BJJ before, he's still mainly a CACC wrestler. Thats like telling me that one the countless BJJ'ists who've done some Judo should be considered a Judoka instead of a BJJ'ist or that the late Rolls Gracie should be considered a Sambo practictioner because he practiced and participated in Sambo.
Yup.
ocianain - Eddie Bravo introduced the guillotine (a folkstyle wrestling move) to the BJJ world by submitting a Gracie with it.
Unless I've somehow managed to overlook one of the most startling developments in the grappling world, this didn't happen.
Lord Kancho, he's reffering to the "Wrestler's guillotine" or now Eddie Bravo's "twister".
I don't know if he's a catch guy, his base is judo and BJJ. But he is with Nippon Top Team now (Imanari and Kitaoka) who obviously have a jap sub grappling/catch background. It's obvious in the way they give up position for subs. And you can see Aoki do that sometimes (with mixed results)
"Aoki is strongly influenced by catch how? He is with Paraestra Tokyo and Yuki Nakai (BJJ blackbelt) and of course judo"
Bobby Lupo -BeerMuscles - Lord Kancho, he's reffering to the "Wrestler's guillotine" or now Eddie Bravo's "twister".
Lord Kancho is talking about the outcome I think, Lil' Dinosaur didn't finish with his too rough for comp catch wrasslin Twister.
Exactly.