IMO, both Silva's and Chuck's days are becoming numbered.
That is why I want to see Silva vs Chuck ASAP.
Shogun is still incredibly young, 25, 26? And has boundless energy, the longer the fight last, more trouble Chuck will be in. Chuck had trouble with Rampage's clinch, Shogun is better in the clinch.
There is a outside chance of Chuck KO'ng Shogun, but I think 4/5 fights Shogun takes it.
"I think people are really, really underselling Chuck now. He got caught once vs Rampage. He was solidly beaten down by page the first time, but this was just one shot early in the fight, it's hard to draw too much from it."
It's quite the coincidence that Chuck happened to "get caught" against the only A level striker he fought in quite a while......he simply isn't dominant against top strikers.
"Alistair Overeem with a gas tank is a tougher fight for Chuck than
Shogun."
That's like saying a mentally prepared Vitor beats Chuck. True, but
unlikely to happen. But I agree that Overeem is a monster for the first
round of every fight.
What about Overeem and Vitor? Granted he was getting handled by Overeem until that baseball punch and he didn't finish Vitor. Haha, still, those guys are strikers, and he won!
I don't think Shogun is an A level striker. His standup didn't look very strong against Nakamura, and he wanted no part in trading with Overeem. Same with the snake. And Nogueira was cracking him left and right. I think Shogun is a better grappler than he is a striker.
I'm by no means saying Chuck is a K1 level striker, but I think he'd do well on the feet given Shogun's aggressive and somewhat reckless style.
"What about Overeem and Vitor? Granted he was getting handled by Overeem until that baseball punch and he didn't finish Vitor. Haha, still, those guys are strikers, and he won!"
Excellent point, there was also Mezger.
Chuck has staying power and the ability take and give out a lot of punishment.
I still see Shogun winning, he is at his prime.
"I don't think Shogun is an A level striker. His standup didn't look very strong against Nakamura, and he wanted no part in trading with Overeem. Same with the snake. And Nogueira was cracking him left and right. I think Shogun is a better grappler than he is a striker. "
This is spot on, people seem to be vastly overestimating Shogun's stand up. Yes, Chuck is wild and unorhodox and can come unstuck against a better striker but Shogun's striking is not on that level. Chuck's power and chin have enabled him to gain victories against strikers that were technically more proficient and Shogun's striking isnt good enough to put him on another level(crucially, he doesnt have that much power either). If Shogun did have success standing i would guess it would be through the clinch, no way would i favour Shogun if it ended up a kickboxing match.
Of course Chuck is capable of beating good strikers...he just isn't dominant against them (in reference to the "Mike Tyson in the 80's" comments that Dana was so fond of).
I would certainly rate Shogun's striking pretty high when compared to Tito, Babalu, Randy, Horn, and Vernon White (please don't go there)....that's every fighter that Chuck has beaten since Overeem, which was nearly 4 years ago.
wtf... shogun would ko both chucks in 13 seconds.
he has the best standup and ko power in mma history and is the only threat to fedor imo.
uhuh.
"Its hard to take a lot from the shogun-rampage fight though. Quinton looked pretty bad in that fight, and Shogun did all of his damage from the clinch."
I agree with this completely. Rampage didn't even try to do anything in that fight -- did he even throw a punch? -- and if Chuck were that susceptible to being clinched then Randy and Tito would have had more luck with their takedown attempts.
"Really? What makes you say that? Busta & Vitor took him down, and I'd say Shogun has far better takedowns then either of them. He took down a world class judoka(Nakamura)at will. I don't think he'd nail every attempt, but I'm sure he'd eventually get him down. "
Since then Randy(in fights 2 and 3) and Tito both failed to take Chuck down, or at last keep him down. I accept that Shogun superior striking will perhaps lead to easier takedown oppertunities though, i guess this is a possibility. Still, Shogun would have a very hard time taking Chuck down and keeping him there so i wouldnt say a takedown is inevitable. Of course the result is far from guaranteed but i really believe that Liddell would eventually win if it stayed standing(even if Shogun tagged him a few times first, as many have)and i believe Liddell could keep it standing for the majority of the fight.
"Mezger and Overeem are the only good strikers that Chuck's ever KO'd and those guys had already gassed before Chuck KO'd them"
mezger and overeem have excuses
chuck has KO victories
^^^ : )
Shogun would probably win but it's all about match-ups and as the threadstarter pointed out, guys like Wandy & Shogun get hit and are a little sloppy and VERY aggressive. That works GREAT against a guy like Rampage but could get them KTFO against Chuck. Rampage happens to be a REALLY bad match-up for Chuck but this could be a circle of:
Rampage beats Chuck
Chuck beats Shogun or Wandy
Shogun or Wandy beats Rampage
Just like Trigg, MayheM & Lawler. I really want to see Hendo versus Rampage & Shogun now!
Id favour Chuck in 99% of sloppy striking battles because he ahs a good chin and immense power. I have no doubt that in a brawl he would come on top against Shogun. Shogun would definately have to tone down his aggression and look for clinches or takedowns that open up in striking exchanges.
"Shogun got raped by an old Mark Coleman."
WORST TROLL EVA!!!
"Bottom line is they're BOTH sloppy strikers, but who's less sloppy? That's the question."
LOL...
ummm, not really bro.
The only way Chuck beats Shogun is by complete and total fluke.
"Then what IS the question?"
The question is
Who can impose their will on the other?
Look, here are the facts...
Shogun is not sloppy by any means. He has a different style than a lot of fighters which is very exciting. He's aggressive, but it doesn't mean he lacks technical knowledge. If you watch his fights, he uses head movement, timing, good combinations, very good takedowns (In his fight with Nog he took him down repeatedly and at will).
Shogun has shown that he can win fights in many different ways.
Now, let's discuss Chuck.
We know that Chuck is a good wrestler with solid striking skills. Loopy punches, do NOT mean sloppy, IMO. It gives you good angles and works very well in MMA because of the small gloves. If you catch a looping haymaker right in the chin and you'll understand why they work.
I'll give you this though. I've noticed Chuck's tendency to drop his hands and it cost him against Rampage. It doesn't mean his overall striking is sloppy, it just means that he got comfortable and started slacking in the defense department.
He's a veteran and has been around for a long time. I'm sure Chuck knows what his mistake was and I can't wait to see him get back in there and put together another run.
FYI --- Shogun, Anderson Silva, Chuck, GSP are my top favorite fighters to watch.
"Shogun, Anderson Silva, Chuck, GSP are my top favorite fighters to watch."
that's a nice list.
I think if Shogun took it to Chuck with lots of legs kicks and high kicks he beat him badly. If he goes in looking for the clinch or with aggressive punching he'd get KTFO. That's why Page made Chuck come to him...