Why did guys like Ben Spykers lose so badly to Renzo and that good judo guy lose to Ken Shamrock in the early days of the UFC (and other fights that Judo guys lost) and now Judo guys are emerging as major threats in MMA?
Why did guys like Ben Spykers lose so badly to Renzo and that good judo guy lose to Ken Shamrock in the early days of the UFC (and other fights that Judo guys lost) and now Judo guys are emerging as major threats in MMA?
Its not the style its the fighter.
"It`s not the style it`s the fighter."
I agree -- but I mean these guys got submitted SO easily.
were there any judo guys that fought nhb before the ufc? im not sure just asking
not enough newaza?
because most of them sucked the ones who made it work due to crosstraining were Kikuta,Sakurai and to add Judo Newaza is very bacic. It would be kind of hard to hang with someone on the mat when the system you train it has not added any new movements to a system of grappling that is still growing.
both lost due to strikes
"were there any judo guys that fought nhb before the ufc? "
Gene Lebelle fought Milos Savage in the '60's and Kimura beat Helio Gracie
1. Most of the early judoka (Spikers, Lenninger), were dependent on the gi. When they faced a gi-less Renzo, or the Man of Speedo himself, they lost many of their weapons. I've seen it both ways, wrestlers who put on the gi and suffer, and judoka and BJJ who take off the gi and suffer at first.
2. As for why judo is just now adapting, there are a multitude of reasons. First, judo in the US is small, and not very talented (no disrespect to Josh Resnick on here, but he's no Kosei Inoue). And, to be quite frank, many judoka had their heads up their ass, and ignored MMA for a long time (at least, the established judo clubs did). Only now am I hearing talk within major judo e-mail lists that I am a member of of gi less grappling making a major impact.
As for Japan, there were judoka who made the transition, but since they were often also doing pro-wrestling, that's the name that stuck. In addition, there was little need for the highest level of judo in Japan to even want to go to MMA. Yoshida has only crossed over because, quite frankly, in competitive judo he was washed up.
Igor Zinoviev went to our local Judo school for years before the Sperry fight.Queens judo
Not just the gi...the focus in Judo for most Dojo's was the throws. Most stopped training the striking and ground fighting, which are part of Judo. I am on another forum with with a 5th Dan Judoka who says bringing back the striking in Judo is a bad idea and that it has no place in modern Judo.
The judo guys in the early events didn't do that well because they didn't prepare specificly enough for MMA competition. They didn't work on striking defense enough.
Also Spijkers and Lenninger drew Royce and Shammrock in their first fights, there's alot of fighters from they early days they might have beated easily.
Zinoviev used lots of Judo very effectively in his early EFC appearances. Lober could not stand with him at all in grappling and Sperry had an awful time keeping him pinned.
Also, the level of Judoka's has always been low. Leinger, while a good fighter, was nothing more than a C level player in the US, a place that doesn't have the best of players in the world.
Spjikers, well... From what I remember, his Judo career was very much 'flash in the pan'.
I've heard Zinoviev v. Sperry in a couple other threads too...
I have no problem calling it a legit win for Zinoviev, but Sperry was handing him pretty well till he decided to try to leapfrog him. :)
Max
Slapsymaxi: That's the nature of fighting... Sakuraba was handling Nino, until the end.
Trigg was handling Sakurai, until the end.
lol
"Trigg was handling Sakurai, until the end."
whats funny about that is Trigg is a 2ed Dan in Judo.
MoW: Eh, I wasn't really referring to their judo skills in those fights. Were just two fights that jumped to mind in my head where one fighter was really crushing the other, then lost.
Add Mino x Cro-Cop as well.
I was told by several people who were really into Judo that Japanese judo orgs were against MMA fighting and threatened to not allow Judokas to compete...and some schools threatened to kick fighters out if they fought in MMA events. Think about it, all of the Judokas that have competed in MMA events were done with Judo at the time, as far as I know.
Although it appears that mentality has turned around because of Yoshida's popularity. Evidently, Yoshida is considering competing in Judo again (So I've read recently)