You would think Royce would have had a harder time with that huge Judo guy, Remco Pardoul or whatever his name was.
It's the person not the style.
miller
you are right i don't know why kimura and lebelle didn't come to mind. especially kimura's battle against helio.i feel like a tard for not thinking of them.
kimura vs helio wasn't nhb.
"(the wrestlers)didn't have any success at all in the beginning"
100% wrong. Dan Severn. Mark Coleman & Randleman. Frank Trigg. All entered MMA basically 100% pure wrestler and they all cleaned up. So have a lot of other wrestlers.
"Slapsymaxi: That's the nature of fighting... Sakuraba was handling Nino, until the end."
Kai -
I generally agree, but the question wasn't about Zinoviev as a fighter, as much as it was about Judo in MMA. It wasn't Igor's judo that said,"WTF? He's trying to jump over me?!?!?!" :)
Max
I believe that how well a "style" does in real fighting depends on what culture surrounded it when it was developed. For example why is thaiboxing one of the strongest styles for striking ? Essentially all they do is throw very basic kicks and punches (the same basic kicks and punches exist in all the standup styles in different variations) IMO it depends on that the people who made thaiboxing what it is is generation after generation of street/farm-boys for whom professional fighting was the only alternative to prostitution. Their mentality forced better training-methods and made those same basic techniques work a little better than in for example classical karate. In much the same way Judo and BJJ basically has the same techniques, only Judo was developed by serious athletes preparing for a very specific sport, in BJJ those same moves was made to work by a bunch of cowboys in Brazil who went to each others schools and beat each other up, had challenge/Vale Tudo-fights way back etc. For the same reason Judo today is way more competitive than for example japanese jiu jitsu because the Judo players have allways been preparing for competition, even for the olympics in recent years. For NHB that isn't as suited as the Brazilian cultural heritage but it beats training for "self-defence" and spiritual development.
Man, you judo trolls make me sick! Sick I tell you!!!
I remember when Yoshida was still doing his works and all of you were singing praises of his groundskills and throws. Comments like: "You can't be a gold medalist in judo and have poor groundskills" LMAO why haven't we heard anything like that anymore?
It's because you abandoned poor Yoshida like rats leaving a sinking ship when he finally decided to do real fights.
"yet Nog got tooled for the first rd by Nakamura, who achieved nothing in world judo.how so ??"
Lol
Nakamura couldn't do shit to Nogueira. And I mean that literally. I feel sorry for that guy, he is a bit more skilled than Yoshida, but he still can't win any legit opponent by any other way than a boring decision.
His gameplan always seems to be to stall the whole fight... Good thing Nogueira wasn't having any of that and tapped that ass like Royce does to everyone when he walks into Kai Tremeche's Dojo.
Poor chokemasta, only in his delusional mind is sitting in someone's guard doing nothing "tooling" someone...
sad... sad I tell you
" Nakamura owned Nog for the first rd, he lost because he gassed..get over it."
That's a pretty accurate explanation.... if you are a delusional judo fruitcake.
He lost because Nogueira took his back and armbarred his stalling ass easily like how whitebelts do the double-armbar on Kai Tremeche.
P.S. Thanks to the guy who posted "and now Judo guys are emerging as major threats in MMA?". My back has been hurting today and I needed a good laugh.
Judo is a way to control an attacker without lethal force, thats why kano named it gentle way. The ground game is good and you can easily dominate an unskilled attacker on the ground with the moves you will learn in Judo, if you are looking for effective self defense Judo is great, if you want to fight mma cross train - like everyone else.
Judos main assest is throws, unlike aikido, Judo throws will work against a stationary attacker, even a trained grappler. Judo throws have the capability to end a fight abrubtly if done right ( in a street fight, probably not on a mat to often). Most of Judo's throws can been applied without the gi although you need to adjust your grips.
Karo demonstrated Judo techniques against strasser, drop knee ippon which dropped dave on his head, suma geashe ( can't spell ) into kimura was wicked.
Like most martial arts, you need to adapt to be successful in mma. Bye itself Judo is a wonderful art that can be used effectively in self defense.
Other techniques that can be applied with out the gi-
Osota Gari, Tani Otosh, Morote Gari, Kosoto gari, tia otosh, tomonagi, Haria Gosh - theres more throws I just named my favorites. Sorry about the spelling I've been away from Judo for awhile training BJJ.
Yoshida is an example of a man who has not cross trained very much - he has been succesful compared to guys from alot of arts who do not crosstrain. - Even Royce has a boxing coach ( not to take anything away from his BJJ, he's a smart fighter who realized the importance of cross training.)
I can't imagine why a serious mma fighter would not want to at least check out Judo's throws.
"I think the "threat" being referred to also involves guys like Karo who everyone swore was the second coming until his fight with St. Pierre. Since then I haven't seen his name on this forum in weeks except for brief rumors about him fighting Shonie."
Karo's not a bad fighter at all, and I look forward to anytime him or some of his stablemates compete.
St-Pierre was just a better fighter. Don't be surprised if you see the guy beat some more top opponents.....So just because Karo lost to that guy it doesn't mean he's not any good.
And the guy who compared wrestlers to judokas in terms of lack of success in the earlier days of MMA....Uh, are you smoking crack? Wrestlers were rather dominant early on, then after a while they needed to start cross-training. That's far different with what happened with judokas in MMA.
well most judo guys train for throws and thats about it. most relying on using the opponents gi. the end
for those that post ridiculous questions about judo as an effective and necessary element in combative grappling is sheer lunacy..judo IS and always WAS a grappling combative martial art...the history of judo and it's importance and effectiveness in self defense and millitary/police foundations is too great to even name..
the question posed was why in the early days of the ufc (ie: ufc 1-5) did those who came in with a judo background not clean up? well, you have some possible answers (like the effectiveness of the fighter, the skill level etc), but truth be told, we don't know and never will...to blantantly and riduculously post that it is because judo itself is in effective is utter stupidity..is that to say because a boxer enters a wrestling tournament and loses that all boxers are useless?...
honestly, those involved in high performance sport and have truly trained know that it is the individual who makes the game plan..each comes with a style and a base of techniques that has to be applied to the tournament or event they are competing in...
stop trolling for once, open your eyes, be enlightened and mature..you are playing into a marketing strategy done by martial arts for years (prior to the birth of your parents and grandparents i might add)..this strategy just sells the public on the fact that one is better than the other..
in a grappling event or an event where grappling is likely to occur, grapplers (judo, sambo, wrestling, bjj) are generally going to have an advantage than those with no grappling exeperience...
the question i want to know is, why is it so important to DISPROVE and DENEGRATE judo overall? what has judo done, in general, that requires it to be called into question over and over again?
my mother used to say, when others make fun of someone, it is because they are envious of them..i can't help but wonder if this may be true here...
Wayland: let me tell you why:
Your Bitch and Luke Beston used to do judo at the local YMCA and got homo erotically involved with the instructor at their respective clubs.
But after a week or two of romance, both current bjj supremacists got dumped for another boy and hence their super volatile bitter emotion towards judo in general.
....well, at any rate, thats the only reason I can think of for 2 people to spend so much time trying to trash the whole sport.
I mean for someone who claims that Yoshida is the anti-christ, its funny how Your Bitch brings up Yoshida even when the topic goes no where near judo or Yoshida. He Freudian slips with his Yoshida obsession all the time.
Anyone else have any other guesses?
okay, i am trying to be civil about this but wasa-B that did make me laugh out loud...
"is that to say because a boxer enters a wrestling tournament and loses that all boxers are useless?..."
That is a ridicilous comparison; a boxer can not use his one strength in wrestling. Nothing, and I mean nothing, stopped the judoka in the early UFCs from using their throws and newaza...
"the question i want to know is, why is it so important to DISPROVE and DENEGRATE judo overall? what has judo done, in general, that requires it to be called into question over and over again?"
What did somebody say earlier? "It's not the art but the fighter" ? Well, it's not the art but some of its practicioners who post here that get many people to make fun not only of them, but also of Judo as well.
See Kai Tremeche and chokemasta for two good examples.
"my mother used to say, when others make fun of someone, it is because they are envious of them..i can't help but wonder if this may be true here... "
Good post by LOL how in the Hell can BJJ be Jealous of Judo?! i mean after all Now days people from TMA backgrounds are takeing BJJ over judo why? because it's still growing as for Judo it is what it is when Kano was alive.
As a matter of a fact if you took a TEST in the U.S for what Grappling system you would feel most safe in the clench don't be shocked when you find out that BJJ is always picked over Judo.
Judo is a worldwide sport yes but as far as what is popular and whats more aplyable now days BJJ is it.
What kills me the most is how a Judoka is so quick to throw in a bjjers face that "BJJ is Judo" LOL ok... ok.. let me break it down We all Know Bjj comes from Judo....Just like Karate came from China but is it Gung Fu? NO it's not Arts like Kenpo and Won Hop Kuen Do come from Guan Fa does that mean these arts are Gung Fu? ( i used the Real term of spelling it than "Kung Fu")NO as i said once and i will say again thats like saying " Iam my own Father and my father is me"
Jealous...pssst please right now BJJ is the number one groundfighting art out there i really dont think they have a bone of jealousy in them.....i mean after all Bjjers all know Judoka have better Tachiwaza ask a judoka if bjj groundwork is better than Judo Newaza and watch the excuses fly..
a) You don't have to be Karo Parisyan to throw someone without a gi. I've entered BJJ tournaments and thrown people without a gi, and I never train no-gi and I'm sure as hell no Karo Parisyan. Yoshida, Karo, Sakurai, Fedor -- all the MMA judoka have thrown people without the gi.
b) Speaking as a dedicated judoka, anyone who doesn't think the level of groundwork in BJJ is higher in 99% of cases (there are Judo groundwork specialists who are very very good) is just blinded by loyalty. Why on earth wouldn't people who spend all their time doing newaza be better at it?
LOL @ Judo and its excuses. Relative to the other two major grappling arts competing in MMA(wrestling and BJJ), Judo has been utterly PATHETIC!
I have yet to be impressed with Judo black belts on the ground, and I have yet to be unimpressed w/bjj blackbelts on the ground.
There is NO COMPARISON.
BTW, the reverse may be true on the feet with respect to throws WITH the gi.
i still did not get an answer to my question..all i got was how pathetic judo was/is in comparison to bjj..
look, mma is a different drum altogether, everyone admits that..also true is vale tudo practice in bjj..this means that bjj would most likely be best prepared for the first mma tournaments, which it clearly was..
as far as judo athletes entering the ufc and mma, in comparison to other martial arts, judo enthusiasts have been quite small in numbers, yet you STILL focus on how it did not do well in the first mma tournaments..my question is why are you so preoccupied with judo? since you can not provide me a tangible, intellectual and factual response yet, i can only conclude that it is a) fall out from the gracies original marketing strategy of distancing their art from judo; and b) judo's rather popular and long history as a submission grappling system..
try, without throwing insults, to maturely respond to this discussion...i am not insulting anyone or any style, i just do not understand why you are so preoccupied with downgrading judo..
this forum now has a history of two camps going head to head, yet when they get in the same training room, they often spend most of the time training, laughing and drinking together...so what gives? this animosity that is being uncharacteristically portrayed on this site only exists on this site...this is NOT the case in my club, or my colleagues clubs, so again, why perpetuate it? what is your payback and satisfaction in doing so?
to my earlier point, i don't think that lenninger or spiikers were flakes at all, i think they were not prepared for mma in comparison to vale tudo practice of bjj..period..as for other styles, i would only guess the same..today, grappling is very popular, and once again appreciated by all martial arts, thanks to the gracies and the ufc...everywhere except here that is...
enlightenment defined: a mind open to everything, yet attached to nothing... try to be open to all possiblities, it just might improve your rolling skills...