"it's the fighter AND the style"
Your Father is correct, IMHO.
I wouldn't say that Fabio Gurgel sucks at MMA. He was one of the premeir fighters with the whole Jiu-Jitsu vs. lutra livre conflict.
Is it fair to say that arts that don't adapt to the current times will not fair as well as those that do?
Fedor and Kikuta both have stronger backgrounds in judo than Hughes does in wrestling.
ps. I didn't read the thread ;o)
Haha all the judo haters have made fucking jackasses out of themselves again! The early kodokan mma judoka were some of the very best rippers of all time, i.e. Maeda.
In the 50's Gene LeBell crushed a world champion boxer and had to agree not to attack his legs. Then there was Kimura, aye?
I don't have the time to list all the judoka that have been beating ass in mma for the past decade on this post but it is a giant list comprised of kick ass fighters that brought down bad ass non judoka. LMAO cause you all know it is fact.
Keep in mind that when a fighter, regardless of his intitail base indoctrination, steps into a ring/cage to fight mma he is a mma fighter and no longer a wrestler, a judoka, a sambist, a boxer, a bjjist, etc. etc. It has long, long ago been proven that you must cross train to be successful. So the most effective mma fighters then are those that cross train the longest and hardest.
If all the judoka in the world stopped training judo for Olympic judo rules comp and shed the gi and concentrated on judo as applied to mma fighting and cross training well then it would not be long before all the judoka and/or sambists would be literally dominating the mma scene. The same could be said for wrestlers and bjj competitors.
In Michigan all the mma clubs, i.e. Warrior Way, MASH, Metro Fight Club, Gomez Academy, Tap or Snap, etc. realize how effective all of our styles are and what you have is a blending of the clubs and styles producing outstanding mma fighters.
Often mma judoka from the early years of the Kodokan fought to the death, now that is reality.
From "50 Great Judo Champions" by Simon Hicks & Nicolas Soames, page 2:
"But the reputation of the Kodokan in those early years was upheld by the 'Four Heavenly Guardians' as they were called - Shiro Saigo, Tsunejiro Tomita, Yoshiaki Yamashita and Sakuijiro Yokoyama. The turning point was the famous competition with jiu-jitsu schools under the auspices of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police with the prize effectively being the license to teach the police. Kodokan won all bouts with the exception of two that ended in a draw. It was this competition which saw Saigo, a small but hot-tempered man, win with his famous yama-arashi.
But all four were regularly present and effective when ju-jitsu fighte4s from other schools would turn up at the Kodokan - often unannounced - and issue a challenge. And for all Kano's insistence on a philosophical and ethical basis to the practice, confrontations could be harsh affairs.
In The Fighting Spirt of Japan (E.J. Harrison, Foulsham 1955) Sakujiro Yokoyama remembers some of those early fights - starting with the days before the foundation of the Kodokan. 'In those days contests were extremely rough and not infrequently cost the participants their lives. Thus, whenever I salled forth to take part in one of these affairs, I invariably bade farewell to my parents since I had no assurance that I should eer return alive. Competitions were such a drastic nature that few tricks were barred and we did not hesitate to have recourse to the most dangerous methods in order to overcome an opponent. I have had experiences of this kind without number'".
If a world class judoka entered the World Freestyle Wrestling Championships he would get his ass kicked. If the World Champion Freestyler entered the World Judo Championships he would get his ass kicked. So what is the point?
MMA is MMA not judo, wrestling, bjj, boxing, karate, tae kwon do, muay thai, etc. etc. but rather it is all of them.
I didn't read any of this but I am going to go out on a limb and say they didn't do well early on because they weren't cross training in BJJ and now they are. Don't shoot me.
Bjj cross trains judo, wrestling, boxing, etc. etc. etc. Check some of the best bjj mma fighters, i.e. Sperry, Royler, Behring JJ, etc. It is all cross training. Some of our guys from jump have beaten bjj b-belts in mma with no bjj training, i.e. Gardner v. Prado.
Its all about cross training champ. Hey, I've watched a helluva lot of your fights through the years and I really dig your fighter's heart and spirit.
Btw, read some it cause its pretty good.
I loved the westsidestrangler's last fight for Pride. Is this the same guy?
Now Judo has incorperated alot of BJJ moves.
TS, Bruz its all semantics. Most folks view judo as Olympic judo and that is the worldwide connotation of the term judo now. However, that is just one application of judo, sport judo. Judo is also a way to become a bad motherfucka if you happen to land in a bizzare judo dojo, like ours. Most contemporay judoka associate themsleves with sport judo because that is their indoctrination, however, you cannot classify a judoka that is balls to walls in love with mma as a sport judoka. A mma judoka is a judoka, a cross trainer, etc.
That is what drives me nuts on the UG is the definition of terms, the false premises used in argument, etc.
Droogs, as a kid I was in a ton of schoolyard fights. I remember being kicked in the nuts hard in street fights at at age 12 by little brawlers. I used my judo throws to win and I gained a rep. Half the time I was crying when I won because the fights were so brutal. Shit, I was 12 for Christ's sake. Judo gave me pride, a rep and saved my ass from bullies.
When I was 22 I fought street fights with two of the orginal Kronk boxers in a bar parking lot at 2:30 a.m.
vs. Rocky Alkazof and Frank "Tut" Butler. We fought til the police locked us up. I know what judo is and it is not just some sport shit.
All the chokes and armbars you see in mma and bjj are also in judo. All the leg and ankle attacks you see are found in sambo and sub grappling.
Bruzes, don't get all hung up on words, God-damit.
Jeezz. I was talking about "In the beginning" Like before anyone was cross training. BJJ did well and Judo did not. I am not knocking Judo. Judo is a great art.
Of course I cross train and yes it was me in the last Pride.
"yet Nog got tooled for the first rd by Nakamura, who achieved nothing in world judo.how so ??"
Did they have a 2nd fight? That doesn't sound anything like the fight I saw.
LOL@Chris attempting to inject honesty into the thread... Nice try anyway man.
Gee, another BJJ vs. Judo thread, how original!
I'm not trying to be a troll or insult anyone, and I know I wouldn't want to screw around with a judo blackbelt.
However, there has been one common vein running through MMA since it blossomed in the early 1990's, and it has been BJJ. BJJ seems to be the common denominator, alot of other things seemed collateral, with BJJ as the foundation. Just my humble opinion.
That's NOT saying Judo is useless, but I'm just calling it as I have seen it...
1groovyunit: I completely disagree... There has been a lot more than just BJJ throughout the 90's. We had Lion's Den (Catch and god-knows-what from Pancrase via Funaki), Wrestlers by the dozen and Shooto fighters with just as much success.
If Neil Adams, Flavio Canto, or Yamashita had been in the first ufc representing judo there is a very good chance that they would have won it. A fight between any of those men vs either Gracie or Shamrock would have been awesome.
One thing, without saying that judo or sambo was better or was close to matching bjj's success in early MMA or today but Oleg Taktarov (though about 30lbs bigger than Royce) did well and though he lost to Severn (where Royce obviously subbed Dan), he drew Shamrock.
Also people are forgetting Igor Zinoviev and his match with Sperry. Sperry is around 210 i think and Igor 190. Igor Z did have a kickboxing background too but he did hold his own against Sperry, one of bjj's greats.
It IS true, like somone said, that why wouldnt BJJ be a better ground and sub grappling style if thats pretty much all they do?
Just like boxers are good with punches.
I dont think the arguement is that which is better or even better suited to MMA, BJJ is hands down over judo but it doesnt mean someone from judo cannot succeed as has been proven.
This would be fine except for a few judo trolls trying to lay claim to its superiority and the many bjj trolls who not only try to claim that bjj is the best and only way but that everything else sucks.
That is where the beefs start.
'Your Father' is still the UG's Bitch.