"and the many bjj trolls who not only try to claim that bjj is the best and only way but that everything else sucks."
REALLY? How often do you see that. Honestly, it's not like that.
As posted earlier, most BJJ people are more than willing to admit that a judoka's standup grappling and takedowns are superior, but try and get the same from Judo people on bjj groundwork is like getting blood from a stone.
It's all sweet, Judo and BJJ compliment each other quite well... Most admit this, but then refuse to admit the reasoning behind it ie: bjj in typical form has better groundwork and Judo has the better throws.
"Why didn't Judo do well/early MMA?"
Short answer: The same reason wing-chun, Tae Kwon Do, Tang soo do, Kenpo, and Shotokan haven't done well.
THE ARE ALL FAR TOO LETHAL! Imagine getting thumbed in your eye-socket by the wing-chun man, kicked in the neck by the TKD man, reverse punched in the solar-plexus by the Tang soo do man, front kicked in the liver by the Shotokan man, chopped in the throat by the Kenpo man, or thrown ON YOUR FRIGGIN HEAD by the Judo guy!
Nooo thank you, sir. Not for me. No way.
WW: Total agreement mate.
Wrestling (standup) someone with both Judo AND FS/GR Wrestling isn't my favourite place to be...
Did you go to the no-gi tourney last week in Sydney WW? I grappled BigD (won the HW intermediate) for the first time on Saturday... Man, did he ever tool on me, His game seems to have gone up another 50%! He must have looked good on the mats up there.
Wow, this thread got longer, so I just had to read the later stuff ;o)"most BJJ people are more than willing to admit that a judoka's standup grappling and takedowns are superior"But Pulsar, you have consistently said that judo's takedowns are generally not that good or useful. Heck, I remember you mentioning that training from wrestling videotapes could be better...And to get back to the original point of MMA, has anyone ever been in a fight against someone who knew more than the average judoka on the ground? I mean a real fight. If judokas know more than the average guy on the ground, and can actually control where the fight takes place, then judo's sport model has served its purpose. It is about balance. Even though boxers have better athletes than San Shou, the idea of a format that is like muay thai + wrestling leads to better balance IMO for the average person. Of course a MMA fighter can train SO much that he (or she) can train in many arts (including the judokas in MMA like Kikuta who, like Hughes or Sperry, know more than their original art), but for the regular people, I am still not convinced that bjj leads to better street odds than judo. Especially when I look at the self-defense bjj stuff that has come out recently. Judokas would have no trouble pulling that stuff off IMO.Still, I will start training in bjj soon, so by 2006 I should be a blue belt I hope =)(and yes, I still think that some judokas have extremely good groundwork (as they just like it or focus on it), but I am looking at the average guy and comparing his skillset after a couple of years in the art to the judokas one)BJJ=better at submissionsBJJ and Judo=tie for positioning (you can win outright by positioning in judo (generally see tighter pinning work as a result), but bjj has a superior format in terms of getting people to rear mount, so it is a tie) Judo=better at takedownsBJJ and Judo=tie in striking (let us be honest here, both aren't exactly great)Judo=better in terms of building strength of the practitioner (how many judokas post about being outmuscled by their bjj friends vs. the opposite?)Judo and BJJ=tie in terms of building cardio (do both regularly and you are fit as a fiddle)Judo=better at building up the co-ordination of the practitioner (throws are damn hard to co-ordinate, so if can do it, you are now athletic)BJJ=better at getting someone good in a short time (this is an important thing in terms of those 12 week self-defense courses, but if you do it for 3 or 4 years, it balances out, but still important IMO)So TIE in:positioning, cardio, strikingJudo wins in:strength, co-ordination, takedowns, BJJ wins in:quick learning curve, submissionsOf course, the most important factor is FUN. Even though I am a big fan of MMA, I don't find submissions to be as fun as throws. I know tonnes of people who disagree though. However, when I watch MMA and see a nice takedown or throw, that excites me. To each their own though...
Actually when I wrote that it occured to me that both the positioning and striking of bjj could be considered superior to that of judo (once again I am talking about the average player in both arts, not people at specialized dojos or people who train 7x a week, 2 times a day, etc.). First of all, in regards to striking, I am not so sure that the superior strikign of bjj is superior enough so as to warrant an advantage. Am I in danger of being opened up for a submission by a bjjer as opposed to a judoka? Maybe, maybe not. In Serra's early fights, I think that his biggest problem was that he didn't incorporate enough striking into his groundwork. The same is true for some judokas who enter MMA though. In terms of a street fight, if a bjjer took me down, passed my non-existant guard, mounted me, well...he could do whatever he wanted to anyway. If a judoka threw me into mount, he too could do whatever he wanted to do as well.The transitions/positioning thing is something that I am willing to concede though. The average bjjer will have a better instinct in terms of getting back-mount. On the flip side, if you did pin someone, the fight is going to get broken up one way or the other. I agree that submissions and positioning (or at least control are related) which is why I gave bjj the advantage here (in theory, the same moves, etc. etc.).So my revised ranking ;o)BJJ and Judo TIE for: cardio and strikingBJJ BETTER FOR: positioning/submissions (one unit), learning curveJUDO BETTER FOR: strength, co-ordination, takedowns/grip fighting (occurs to me that they are related and important)Now, some might say that judo is too strength based, but I DISAGREE. Techinque and physical attributes are highly related, and the techinque of throwing (explosive, passiveness, etc.) is SO advanced.Besides, I didn't mention getting a dominate grip if you are hockey fighting anyway...remember, despite my super strong internet stance, I actually like bjj and am seriously going to start it (hopefully before May?...moving in March it seems, and then I have to find an apartment and then a club). 2006=the year I can beat myself?Bringing it back to a street fight (but not a professional gang street fight, more of a bar type fight), Armbreaker, which do you feel would serve you better? I really do think that it would be judo...I guess my basic argument is that both will serve their purpose (to ready someone for a fight), and that the average bjjer is better than the average judoka on the ground. However, my question is basically...Is it better to be a 7/10 on the ground and a 3/10 in takedowns or a 7/10 in takedowns and a 3/10 on the ground?Is there a noticeable difference against an attacker in either system in terms of effectiveness? FUNNESS definitely belongs to judo though. Damn, up too late again.
Sothy: I mostly agree with your points, but there's one thing that I don't see as much in BJJ that many Judoka's have over BJJ guys: Pinning.
uh..most of the "pure bjj" guys mentioned on this thread are also judo blackbelts.
many,many of the top bjj guys have blackbelts in judo.
If you can win an olympic medal without incredible groundskills and that is your goal why give a shit about rolling?
Sothy: "I remember you mentioning that training from wrestling videotapes could be better..."
Delusional.
I would never say anything like that dude.
You could have boiled down your "strenghs and weaknesses" ramble to one is better at throws and one is better at submissions.
"This is called "surviving" BJJ, not beating it."
Just for arguements sake with the Bitch, let see...
"Wallid Ismail lost to a fighter who refused to let go of the fence and fight him."
- only problem was although perhaps a bit shady, there was no rule against it then. But when Takahashi did choose to "fight him," he nearly knocked him out, what the fuck are you "convieniently" forgetting?
"Fabio Gurgel lost a decision to Jerry Bohlander who did nothing from his guard"
- ummm...does this mean that Gurgel was the better fighter??? This is what is known as the Your Bitch BJJ Bias. Bohlander continually headbutted Gurgel (it was legal back then) and Gurgel was the one who did nothing. Though it cant be considered a domination by Bohlander, he got the decision for a reason, care to guess why that may be???????
But in defense of Moreira, he was slighty outweighed by the Polar Bear. No shame there though every Your Bitch post is done to her "convienience."
pulsar, you are right, I could have said that judo is better at standup adn bjj on the ground, but there is another factor too...judo is better at building physical attributes...ie. strength, co-ordination
not that I have them right now ;o)
"From what i've experienced in both, the thing that sets them both apart far and away, is BJJ's transitioning system. It is so intricate and detailed that it could be taught as a seperate system.
In Judo, I was taught alot of the same techniques, but through BJJ, I learned how they work (broken down into detail), and how to string them together into usable flow patterns."
- that totally makes sense since you would learn more intricate and detailed instruction on takedowns in judo. Its not that either doesnt have either but that you would learn more intricacy and detail in ground work in bjj and standup takedowns in judo.
"Wasa-b, I will not address your post until you apologize for being so hateful."
Translation: "Wasa-B, I will not address your post until you apologive for being so right (all the time).
I'm also very obsessed with Hidehiko Yoshida, does anyone know where he lives???"
Until the Gracies came about, they didn't put enough emphasis on their ground game.
Rastus were you aware that after the Fusen-ryu merged with the Kodokan, groundwork was so popular that Kano has to make new rules to get everybody standing back up throwing again?
JUDO = better at submissions
BJJ = far better at spreading lies and braiwashing novices.
Judo= better for positioning (you can win outright by positioning in judo (generally see tighter pinning work as a result), but bjj has an inferior format in terms of getting people to rear mount)
Judo=better at takedowns
Judo= better in striking
Judo=better in terms of building strength of the practitioner (how many judokas post about being outmuscled by their bjj friends vs. the opposite?)
Judo = better in terms of building cardio
Judo=better at building up the co-ordination of the practitioner (throws are damn hard to co-ordinate, so if can do it, you are now athletic)
JUDO =better at getting someone good in a short time (this is an important thing in terms of those 12 week self-defense courses, but if you do it for 3 or 4 years, it balances out, but still important IMO)
Judo beats BJJ in every aspect of fighting. This is precisely why BJJ world champions (Bitetti, Sperry and Noguiera) were defeated by judoka in MMA who have never even qualified for any World Judo Championship (Frye, Zinoviev, Fedor).
Kimura submitted Helio Gracie 20 times at will. Kimura showed what an easy task for a world class judoka to submit a GJJ master.
"Rastus were you aware that after the Fusen-ryu merged with the Kodokan, groundwork was so popular that Kano has to make new rules to get everybody standing back up throwing again? "No I wasn't, but my point still holds, I believe, for our times.The Judo matches I watched with a friend of mine, aside from being unbelievably exciting and entertaining, was predominantly standup. There was some fantastically agile groundwork displayed, but they, by the rules, couldn't stay there long and were stood up quickly.On the basis of these tournaments I watched (World Class Level) I assumed that most of the emphasis was on throws. Just as Judo guys would dominate most BJJ guys standing up, it stands to reason that most BJJ guys would dominate Judo guys on the ground AT THE TIME OF UFC 1-~8.It's not that newaza ground work is a new concept to Judo - it's the emphasis that I question. I'm no expert in Judo, and don't claim to be. That should be pointed out too.Tossing out made up statistics:Judo Guy and BJJ guy put in 10,000 hours in training.Judo guy puts 70% into standup, 30% into groundwork.BJJ guy puts 90% into groundwork, 10% into standup.They face each other in a contest. The training stacks up like this - BJJ vs Judo:9,000 Hours Groundwork vs 3,000 Hours
1,000 Hours Standup vs 7,000 HoursOutside of individual talent and quality coaching, this is my analysis...in general (where those two critical components become a wash).
tapout54nb,
in your post on the first page.. you are absolutley correct.
lets also not forget that lenninger lost in the first round of the UFC to shamrock, who, by all accounts, was just way, way beyond most of the other guys in the UFC at that time, and for awhile longer as well. There is no way of knowing how lenninger would have done with the others who were there, possibly quite well.. i know lenninger, and he is one stubborn, tough, strong ass man.. though, honestly perhaps a bit too old for the UFC when he went into it.