pegson123 - Barb honchak is one of the most boring characters both inside and outside of the cage. She certainly isn't someone to push forward a 125 division in the ufc.
Pegson123,
If you dont me asking, is there a particular incident that lead you to believe this about Barb outside of the cage? If the UFC do decide to start a 125 division, in my opinion, that division will be very busy
about Barb Honhack - she hasn't fought since invicta 9. I have no idea if she wants to or is going to fight on invicta 13. she's sat out 3 events already. I think she is financially comfortable with her husband and has no desire to fight 2 or 3 times a year, why get banged up, right? And she gets to hang on to that belt.
about a UFC 125 division - i'm all about WMMA, but i wouldn't support it. It'll mean a division will be added which will have say 20 girls in it, and the UFC is overpopulated badly anyway. They would all want fights, and would end up only fighting less than twice every year anyway. I know the pay is better than Invicta but i think the US is reaching its saturation limit of WMMA population.
Just get the girls who do want fights more fights in the existing roster and calendar.
And a division between 115 and 135 will mean girls will "flee" from one division to another, to escape this or that new threat. It'll water down the divisions...badly.... no 125 womens' UFC division.
I think the present set up is fine: Invicta and UFC alternate 105, 115, 125, 135 divisions.
Us fans will lose track of who the hell is in what division as girls transit from one to another.
DalyDentedDecimated'sDome
You make great points but as I mentioned previously about the 145 div, if the UFC do not pick up that division, in my opinion, most of the fighters will move on to Bellator if the opportunity presents itself. Bellator is in a prime position to capitalize and develop the divisions that the UFC are not currently intrested in. In my opinion a 125lb division will be very fair to those in the current 135 div who can drop down. This will allow the fighters to have an opportunity to hold a UFC belt at some point
you seem to have a pro UFC bias. The UFC i don't think can handle a 125 division, to many people. If Bellator made a 125, and they left invicta for it, then good. If we care about the girl fighters, we want them to fight in whatever league has a division which is good for them.
I think Invicta is cool, but i'm not really an Invicta fan so much as a WMMA fan and fan of individual fighters.
DaleyDementedDecimated'sDome,
Please excuse me if my responses give the impression of a UFC bias. This is not the case at all. Like you , I am a fan of WMMA and want to see great fights and the fighters being paid what they deserve and given the best possible promotion whether it is in the UFC, Bellator or Invicta.
As I mentioned, Bellator is in a prime position to capitalize on the divisions that the UFC have no interest in and if that is the case, then that will be great and a plus for Bellator
Koga - I have never heard anything from ZUFFA that indicated that they were interested in adding a 145 division for women in the UFC. After Cyborg's PED suspension in January 2012, ZUFFA stripped her of the title and cancelled the division. Rousey won the 135 title from Tate in March 2012.
ZUFFA want to keep Cyborg on the roster in the hope that she can make 135 to fight Rousey, I doubt they really care about other 145 fighters going to Bellator.
I don't have an answer for women's 145, but the problem is obvious: there are too few talented fighters to make a viable division for one well run organization, much less 2 poorly run organizations. I have no idea who Bellator's champion is at 145. Cyborg is supposedly going to defend her Invicta title in a month - she does not have an opponent yet, and Invicta does not even have a credible opponent for her on their roster.
In 2011, before the PED scandal and when she was the Stikeforce 145 champ, Cyborg saw the writing on the wall for 145 and said that she would move to 135 as "I know there will be more opportunities at 135.” The situation at 145 is even worse 4 years later. Hopefully Invicta gets its act together and finally has fight to crown a 135 champion. Cyborg would be an interesting addition to 135 for the UFC, which she would be guaranteed if she beat a legit 135 title holder in Invicta.
Koga,
I mentioned in this thread that Dana was interested in Gina who was fighting at 145 at the time and was also interested in promoting the Cyborg vs Carano fight in WEC. I am inclined to believe that had Carano beat Cris in 2009, the landscape of WMMA in the UFC would be very different right now.
Bellator do not have a 145lb champ yet but there is a rumor that Coenen vs Budd will be for that belt.. Even though it has not been officially been announced, Faith Van Duin is implying that she is fighting Cris in July and Cris has begun her fight camp.
In her post fight Interview after beating Yamanaka, Cris said at 135 there would be opportnities for more fights but fighting the way she likes to fight, that will be at 145.
Koga- there are too few talented fighters to make a viable division for one well run organization,
One can argue the fact that even though there are more fighters in the 135 div in a as you put it, "well run organization" but outside of one or two, is the division any different from the 145 in terms of fans/casual fans being interested?
about Barb Honhack - she hasn't fought since invicta 9. I have no idea if she wants to or is going to fight on invicta 13. she's sat out 3 events already. I think she is financially comfortable with her husband and has no desire to fight 2 or 3 times a year, why get banged up, right? And she gets to hang on to that belt.
about a UFC 125 division - i'm all about WMMA, but i wouldn't support it. It'll mean a division will be added which will have say 20 girls in it, and the UFC is overpopulated badly anyway. They would all want fights, and would end up only fighting less than twice every year anyway. I know the pay is better than Invicta but i think the US is reaching its saturation limit of WMMA population.
Just get the girls who do want fights more fights in the existing roster and calendar.
And a division between 115 and 135 will mean girls will "flee" from one division to another, to escape this or that new threat. It'll water down the divisions...badly.... no 125 womens' UFC division.
I think the present set up is fine: Invicta and UFC alternate 105, 115, 125, 135 divisions.
Us fans will lose track of who the hell is in what division as girls transit from one to another.
The top talent already has fled... from Flyweight, and Atomweight to a lesser degree. Seriously, what's left of Flyweight is like 4-5 good fighters that could probably hang in a UFC division (Honchak, Porto, and Maia are the remaining top dogs really), a few aging veterans that might still have some good fights left, and then a very steep decline. The problem with keeping the current set-up is that the money is in 115 and 135 (and now a bit in 145 thanks to Bellator). Unless you're Cris Cyborg, you're not making big money in Invicta.
Maybe for now it creates a depth problem at Women's Bantamweight (I get the feeling Women's Strawweight will survive just fine), but Women's Bantamweight and Women's Strawweight are the two fastest growing divisions in the sport by far, and it's definitely something to consider in 18-24 months.
pegson123 - Barb honchak is one of the most boring characters both inside and outside of the cage. She certainly isn't someone to push forward a 125 division in the ufc.
I'm a fan of Barb, but this is 100 percent correct.
Personally Invicta has lost some appeal with its 3 Brazilian champions+Barb. Fair or not, I think the Brazilian fighters are all juiced.
Invicta still holds intrest for me in the new fighters or vets like Roxy making a comeback, but seeing Champs like Waterson out muscled by some juiced Brazilian I don't care about is a serious turn off.
Sad thing is, I don't see Invicta having the money to do proper testing ever.
what the fuck do i know, i don't know business other than speculation...but
Invicta fucked up by signing all these far-away ass girls from brazil and Pacifica.
It takes the pacific girls a whole day to fly there, they can usually barely afford a few corners...and the long arm of the athletic commission doesn't reach to the depths of the Amazon.
Hell yeah those fighters know just when to come off, rinse out, then cruise the last few days or weeks to the fight with extra muscle.
AND THEN ALL THE INTERVIEWS AND POST FIGHTS WITH THEM ARE HALTING, translator-ridden affairs.
Invicta should concentrate on Mexico, and American, and Canada. We don't want to see the world's greatest female fights. We want to see engaging female fights. By fighters who we can somewhat understand and identify with- aka become engaged with. If all these non english speaking girls win, Invicta loses. Because Livia Renata Souza wins the title, and her 240 twitter followers can rejoice. i have more follwers than this girl who trains all day and won the Invicta belt. this is fucked up!
Considering the depth issues that Invicta is facing, outside of Strawweight they don't have a lot of choice.
I do think Souza was a really odd choice for a title fight (and I also get the feeling that Invicta didn't actually expect her to win), but take Atomweight for instance. It's damn near a minor miracle that they've managed to keep a linear title and regular defenses with all the talent they've lost, and at one point they still had to resort to having Waterson beat the shit out of a 45-year-old Japanese woman. After Tiburcio and Hamasaki fight, the only person left who is a solid contender is maybe Mei Yamaguchi.
<br />
<span class="User-204716" id="userPost53704152">Good fight. McMann 3rd TKO GnP.</span></blockquote>
Saddened,
I agree, this is a great fight but I am leaning towards Nunes by stoppage. McManns striking is still developing and Nunes will be too much for her if she cant take her down.
Sunkist1207 - You make great points but as I mentioned previously about the 145 div, if the UFC do not pick up that division, in my opinion, most of the fighters will move on to Bellator if the opportunity presents itself. Bellator is in a prime position to capitalize and develop the divisions that the UFC are not currently intrested in. In my opinion a 125lb division will be very fair to those in the current 135 div who can drop down. This will allow the fighters to have an opportunity to hold a UFC belt at some point
You have more faith in Bellator's commitment to women's 145 than I do.
I think Coker started up that division in hopes of booking Carano-Cyborg II. Now that Carano seems to have ruled out a return to MMA, and Cyborg has signed with Zuffa, those plans are up in smoke. I fear we may see a repeat of what happened when Mega Megu didn't deliver as Bellator hoped she would. They basically scrapped their WMMA divisions, burning off existing contracts by booking women on untelevised prelims and not signing any new fighters. Within a couple of years, they killed off those divisions altogether.
I had to look up Faith Van Duin as I had never heard of her before. As bad as Invicta's 145 is, they have to be able to find a better opponent for Cyborg than a 5-1 fighter whose only fight outside of an obscure MMA promotion in Australia was against 3-3 Amanda Bell in April.
Cyborg wants to fight Rousey for the 135 title in the UFC. Mismatches at 145 against Tweet, much less journeyman fighters like Fiona Muxlow and Faith Van Duin, are not going to get her there.
Sunkist1207 - You make great points but as I mentioned previously about the 145 div, if the UFC do not pick up that division, in my opinion, most of the fighters will move on to Bellator if the opportunity presents itself. Bellator is in a prime position to capitalize and develop the divisions that the UFC are not currently intrested in. In my opinion a 125lb division will be very fair to those in the current 135 div who can drop down. This will allow the fighters to have an opportunity to hold a UFC belt at some point
You have more faith in Bellator's commitment to women's 145 than I do.
I think Coker started up that division in hopes of booking Carano-Cyborg II. Now that Carano seems to have ruled out a return to MMA, and Cyborg has signed with Zuffa, those plans are up in smoke. I fear we may see a repeat of what happened when Mega Megu didn't deliver as Bellator hoped she would. They basically scrapped their WMMA divisions, burning off existing contracts by booking women on untelevised prelims and not signing any new fighters. Within a couple of years, they killed off those divisions altogether.
I think Coker started up that division in hopes of booking Carano-Cyborg II.
Steve4192,
I am inclined to believe that this is one of the contributing factors for Lorenzo to began the negotiations again with Cris Cyborg. Is Gina a free agent of did the UFC inherit her contract? if the former, in my opinion I can see her signing to Bellator because the weight is more than likely the reason why she left the UFC negotiation table.
Coker is a fan of WMMA and in my opinion did good things with the women in Strikeforce so I am going to remain optimistic and wait and see how this all unfold :) As I mentioned previously, Bellator are in a unique position to capitalize on the womens divisions the UFC are not interested in.
@ Koga
Cris has said that she doesnt want the 135lb Belt, she just wants to fight Ronda. I say this respectfully but who Cris fights up until that point is not in my opinon a factor to affect that goal.Muxlow took that fight with Cris on two weeks notice when Ediane Gomes pulled out and Tweet in my opinion, is a decent fighter.
I cannot comment if Faith Van Duin is an exciting fighter to watch, but it says everything you need to know about the current state of 145 in WMMA if she earned a #4 ranking and a title shot for beating Amanda Bell. Fans would be think it was a joke if a fighter with Faith Van Duin's background and record was given a fight against any top 10 UFC fighter at 135.
Some have criticized Bethe “Pitbull” Correia getting a title shot despite the fact that she is 9-0 with 3 wins in the UFC. While this is another mismatch, everyone knows this fight would not happen if Rousey had not already cleaned out the most competitive division in WMMA.
Koga - I cannot comment if Faith Van Duin is an exciting fighter to watch, but it says everything you need to know about the current state of 145 in WMMA if she earned a #4 ranking and a title shot for beating Amanda Bell. Fans would be think it was a joke if a fighter with Faith Van Duin's background and record was given a fight against any top 10 UFC fighter at 135.
Some have criticized Bethe “Pitbull” Correia getting a title shot despite the fact that she is 9-0 with 3 wins in the UFC. While this is another mismatch, everyone knows this fight would not happen if Rousey had not already cleaned out the most competitive division in WMMA.
Koga,
In my opinon Bethe is getting the title shot because its a continuation of the storyline she started by beating Rondas friends Shayna and Jessamyn. I am not in any way saying this is "fair" but its not an isolated incident. How many times did Chael talk his way into a fight or why was Joe Soto who I think is ranked in the 11-15 range given the fight with the champ TJ Dillashaw as his first fight in the UFC?
Koga - I cannot comment if Faith Van Duin is an exciting fighter to watch, but it says everything you need to know about the current state of 145 in WMMA if she earned a #4 ranking and a title shot for beating Amanda Bell. Fans would be think it was a joke if a fighter with Faith Van Duin's background and record was given a fight against any top 10 UFC fighter at 135.
Some have criticized Bethe “Pitbull” Correia getting a title shot despite the fact that she is 9-0 with 3 wins in the UFC. While this is another mismatch, everyone knows this fight would not happen if Rousey had not already cleaned out the most competitive division in WMMA.
Koga,
In my opinon Bethe is getting the title shot because its a continuation of the storyline she started by beating Rondas friends Shayna and Jessamyn. I am not in any way saying this is "fair" but its not an isolated incident. How many times did Chael talk his way into a fight or why was Joe Soto who I think is ranked in the 11-15 range given the fight with the champ TJ Dillashaw as his first fight in the UFC?
you're a nut. No way - Nunes will be beaten half to death. Look at what happens when she fights against Cat Zingano, with her high school wrestling.
McMann will smoosh Nunes to death. Nunes should have fought a weak striker like Jessamyn Duke (that would have been great for the storyline!!).
Nunes is not goinig to win. Her cardio is toilet and so is her ground game.
I wouldn't say her ground game is 'toilet'. While it is true she is awful off her back, she has an excellent top game. She passes guard well, has great control, and devastating ground-and-pound. Which makes her terrible bottom game all the more perplexing. You don't get as skilled as she is from top position without developing some skills from the bottom.
I suspect her problems on the mat are more mental than they are a lack of skills. She's a front-runner. She folds up when things don't go her way (kinda like Vitor and Overeem). The skills are there, but she panics and forgets everything she knows once she is put in a bad position.
Koga - I cannot comment if Faith Van Duin is an exciting fighter to watch, but it says everything you need to know about the current state of 145 in WMMA if she earned a #4 ranking and a title shot for beating Amanda Bell. Fans would be think it was a joke if a fighter with Faith Van Duin's background and record was given a fight against any top 10 UFC fighter at 135.
Some have criticized Bethe “Pitbull” Correia getting a title shot despite the fact that she is 9-0 with 3 wins in the UFC. While this is another mismatch, everyone knows this fight would not happen if Rousey had not already cleaned out the most competitive division in WMMA.
Koga,
In my opinon Bethe is getting the title shot because its a continuation of the storyline she started by beating Rondas friends Shayna and Jessamyn. I am not in any way saying this is "fair" but its not an isolated incident. How many times did Chael talk his way into a fight or why was Joe Soto who I think is ranked in the 11-15 range given the fight with the champ TJ Dillashaw as his first fight in the UFC?
Joe was a late replacement fight.
BRZ,
I recall some fans where not happy that Joe was in the right place for that title fight
<br />
<span class="User-204716" id="userPost53704152">Good fight. McMann 3rd TKO GnP.</span></blockquote>
Saddened,
I agree, this is a great fight but I am leaning towards Nunes by stoppage. McManns striking is still developing and Nunes will be too much for her if she cant take her down.
you're a nut. No way - Nunes will be beaten half to death. Look at what happens when she fights against Cat Zingano, with her high school wrestling.
McMann will smoosh Nunes to death. Nunes should have fought a weak striker like Jessamyn Duke (that would have been great for the storyline!!).
Nunes is not goinig to win. Her cardio is toilet and so is her ground game.
DaleyDentedDecimatedsDome,
One can argue that Amanda won that first round against Cat then her cardio let her down . I say this respectfully but in my opinion Sara looked dominant in one recent fight and that was against Shelia Gaff who is a 115/125 fighter who was undersized for the BW division. The fight with Tate exposed some developmental areas in McManns game and if I recall correctly, McMann spent most if not all of round three of that fight on her back. Sara's stand up is still developing and if Amanda can get in there and overwhelm her with punches in my opinon she wins. Anyway, a great match up for both fighters!
Koga - I cannot comment if Faith Van Duin is an exciting fighter to watch, but it says everything you need to know about the current state of 145 in WMMA if she earned a #4 ranking and a title shot for beating Amanda Bell. Fans would be think it was a joke if a fighter with Faith Van Duin's background and record was given a fight against any top 10 UFC fighter at 135.
Some have criticized Bethe “Pitbull” Correia getting a title shot despite the fact that she is 9-0 with 3 wins in the UFC. While this is another mismatch, everyone knows this fight would not happen if Rousey had not already cleaned out the most competitive division in WMMA.
Koga,
In my opinon Bethe is getting the title shot because its a continuation of the storyline she started by beating Rondas friends Shayna and Jessamyn. I am not in any way saying this is "fair" but its not an isolated incident. How many times did Chael talk his way into a fight or why was Joe Soto who I think is ranked in the 11-15 range given the fight with the champ TJ Dillashaw as his first fight in the UFC?
Joe was a late replacement fight.
BRZ,
I recall some fans where not happy that Joe was in the right place for that title fight
Of course not they wanted the original fight. Had Joe won it would have been some Rocky story.
The the MMA bubbles resentment of Rousey, started way before her topping any P4P rankings though; with the new P4P ranking in my mind, simply serving as post UFC 184 ammunition, for disgruntled UFC fans to once more vocalise a general annoyance, with what they view of WMMA's undeserving prominence as a whole.
I mean, did you read the condescending joy displayed all around the mma sphere, once they heard Rousey would be headlining a sure to be flop UFC 184...? Yeah, if you did, you'll know exactly what I mean about the mma bubbles general antagonist view on anything relating to them having a prominent female athlete like Rousey in their sport.
Plus I don't understand your stance on women gaining anything through being behind a PPV wall either... Rousey's been an abnormality in gaining mainstream attention being behind a PPV wall; but general female fighters on a Fox Card, or the top of a prelims for a big PPV, will surely gain much more eye balls/attention than laying at the bottom of a typical UFC PPV.
As a fact, I guarantee more people saw Tate vs McMann, than Zingano vs Nunes; and yet Tate vs McMann was the headliner of a UFC 183 under card, while Zingano vs Nunes fight was on the main portion of a rather staked UFC 178.
So right now, to receive maximum visibility, wouldn't the best place for most female fighter not named Rousey, be main card Fox? Even Zuffa pushing McGreggor as hard as they have, needed the extra visibility of life outside the PPV wall to generate wider attention. As the numbers UFC 178 were mediocre with him on it, while the numbers for him headlining a Fox card were reportedly rather impressive.
Karnak,
There is no question that Miesha is a well known fighter so I am not surprised and I agree with you that more people would watch a main event with her fighting but with WMMA being in the UFC for 2+ years shouldnt this be the case for most of the BWs or at the very least some of the fighters who are also well known?
Being on the main card of a UFC Fox card or the main card of a PPV, as long as the female fighters are getting the exposure and the promotion that should hopefully introduce the casual fan to female fighters not called Ronda.
Will you be taking the all female fight card challenge? I am very interested to see the all female card that you will put together.
