ArthurKnoqOut -
If fedor said it than its true.Aleks said it :)
Then it has hepatitis.
Then it has hepatitis.
Squared Circle -ArthurKnoqOut -If fedor said it than its true.Aleks said it :)
Then it has hepatitis.
not according to a scanned document from Poland :)
BuddyRevell - You can teach a wrestler to be a great jiu jitsu guy, but you can't teach a jiu jitsu guy to be a great wrestler.
Arona?
BuddyRevell - You can teach a wrestler to be a great jiu jitsu guy, but you can't teach a jiu jitsu guy to be a great wrestler.
No fucking way. ADCC! All jits guys who have a no gi / sub grappling/ goat jiu jitsu or whatever the fuck you wanna call it and they have a great shot, sense of defense and not relying on the kimono and are highly successful ...read they are virtually always winner.
You can teach wrestlers good head and arm chokes because it's from several wrestling clinches, but a wrestler ain't winning jack in GI-WORLDS
ArthurKnoqOut -I've seen wrestlers do well in ADCC (Kerr is one example). Have any jiu jitsu guys done well in wrestling (D-1 or international)?BuddyRevell - You can teach a wrestler to be a great jiu jitsu guy, but you can't teach a jiu jitsu guy to be a great wrestler.
No fucking way. ADCC! All jits guys who have a no gi / sub grappling/ goat jiu jitsu or whatever the fuck you wanna call it and they have a great shot, sense of defense and not relying on the kimono and are highly successful ...read they are virtually always winner.
You can teach wrestlers good head and arm chokes because it's from several wrestling clinches, but a wrestler ain't winning jack in GI-WORLDS
OveREEMed A New Butthole - It's true, BJJ and wrestling are much more complex and deeper than striking.No
I've had a hell of a time trying to break any wrestler I've worked with, of the habit of keeping their hands low and their heads up. Both big no no's in boxing. A lifetime habit of keeping your hands in that wrestler's position is hell to break.
Grappling arts seem to be more complex simply because they aren't as intuitive or accessible to the beginner.
Striking has just as much depth as grappling, if not more. To someone who has never really trained in the striking arts, it just seems like two guys hitting each other. BJJ, especially, has a certain mystique about it because a good BJJ guy will tie you up in weird positions you've never even seen (assuming you're a complete noob) and then all of a sudden your arm is broken.
Just my 2 cents
In wrestling you gotta be able to change your center of balance, you have to notice when your opponent's balance changes, a lateral drop is a good example of this. Your opponent pushes forward and you use his force against him to toss him, but you gotta feel it, it has to be done at the right time because it could last for only a split second. You can't teach a beginner how to lateral drop someone, it's something that you pick up along the way.
Balance is a big part of wrestling, there's people that have a natural balance and will be able to pick up wrestling quickly. A natural born wrestler with 4 years of committed high school wrestling could take on someone who has practiced since the age of 7, and go on to winning the state championship title and later the NCAA National title.
A boxer can learn to wrestle. Some have natural born abilities to be a wrestler and would easily be able to wrestle. It takes time to learn but you can't say it's not possible to do. You have to be open minded.
Same goes to wrestlers learning to box. 
Sorry for the wall of text. iPhone doesn't let me make paragraphs.
Everyone knows how to swing their arm to throw a punch (albeit not correctly) but very few people if any can mimic shooting in and taking someone down with a double leg. The same is true for clinch takedowns. You may be able to takedown someone with no experience but you have very little chance of taking down anyone who has wrestled for a year or two if the guys are the same size. This is not true in boxing, because even someone who is not trained can still land punches on someone who has trained for awhile.
HaMMerHouseFAN - Everyone knows how to swing their arm to throw a punch (albeit not correctly) but very few people if any can mimic shooting in and taking someone down with a double leg. The same is true for clinch takedowns. You may be able to takedown someone with no experience but you have very little chance of taking down anyone who has wrestled for a year or two if the guys are the same size. This is not true in boxing, because even someone who is not trained can still land punches on someone who has trained for awhile.
I think there's a big difference between landing punches (i.e. making contact) and landing significant strikes.
I occasionally box with my friends for fun (who are untrained) and it is like being Neo in the Matrix.
But what you're saying--that's just the nature of striking. Even Pernell Whitaker got hit every once in awhile.
Joe Ray - People schooled in boxing lack sufficient storage space in their muscle memory to become proficient at a grappling art. This has been borne out by evidence time and time again.
This is a common misnomer, but you are getting two things mixed up with "muscle memory" and "storage space." Muscle memory technically refers to a muscles ability, after training, to later quickly regain strength/mass lost due to atrophy. This was recently discovered to be due to an increased volume of myonuclei after training. It is quite true that someone who wrestled all through development would have great muscle memory in wrestling muscles but not boxing muscles (although a lot of overlap there; hips, shoulders, etc). However they could develop the new muscles without detracting from the old ones.
Storage space would imply something in the brain. There is perhaps a limited capacity for coordinated movements specialized to one sport, however there is ample ability for re-wiring of neural circuitry. But I think it would be unavoidable to not lose something from your old "programming" when learning something new in depth. Additionally, the more hard-wired the old program (ie wrestling), probably the more difficult it is to re-wire. So in that sense what you said makes sense.
This is why I think it is an impediment to be elite rather than just very good at one aspect of MMA before training all aspects. Good wrestlers can often become good strikers, but it seems very hard for olympic caliber ones to learn striking. The opposite is true with elite kick boxers learning grappling.
Visual information takes longer to process and respond to than tactile information.
Source? I don't think this is true, I know for a fact the brain can process visual information at a subconscious level VERY rapidly; <30ms. Actually my friend just published about this in Nature Neuroscience :)
Reflex loops, and are present in both the tactile and visual systems, are very fast, but generally tactile information requires just as much higher order processing as visual... I think.. although admittedly Neurobiology was not my strongest subject.
I guess a few ufc HW's lately have been the exception, but wrestlers generally SUCK at striking..
on the other hand, seems like guys with a judo base more often than not become decent strikers (Gono, Sakurai, Akiyama, Misaki).
I always imagined it had something to do with the stance and the rotation used in judo
Naughty Gorilla - I guess a few ufc HW's lately have been the exception, but wrestlers generally SUCK at striking..
on the other hand, seems like guys with a judo base more often than not become decent strikers (Gono, Sakurai, Akiyama, Misaki).
I always imagined it had something to do with the stance and the rotation used in judo
besides Cain who has been good? Bader can't strike...Carwin can't really strike...and Brock...LMAO
PirateJax -
Visual information takes longer to process and respond to than tactile information.
Source? I don't think this is true, I know for a fact the brain can process visual information at a subconscious level VERY rapidly; <30ms.
The only source is anecdotal evidence from my own training.
I always wanted to be that guy who was able to hit you before you moved and who just wasn't there when you tried to hit him.
I didn't think it was possible until I learned how to get my conscious mind out of the mix and just react to what was going on. I took that to mean, instead of my conscious mind trying to react to what I saw (and slowing down my response) I was able to give my brain less to do and the time between seeing something and reacting to it shortened dramatically.
This process took several years.
Grappling was different. I found I was able to do this whole "react to what the other guy gives you" thing faster than I could with standup. The only difference I could determine was when you are grappling you are making more body contact than when striking and you got more information from that than your eyes, since often you are so close you can really see what they are doing anyway.
sak-fu - Matt Hughes' boxing really helped him in his last fight.
lol
Naughty Gorilla - I guess a few ufc HW's lately have been the exception, but wrestlers generally SUCK at striking..
on the other hand, seems like guys with a judo base more often than not become decent strikers (Gono, Sakurai, Akiyama, Misaki).
I always imagined it had something to do with the stance and the rotation used in judo
Gono and Misaki have backgrounds in kickboxing.
Interesting read.