maybe all a wrestler needs to look good is rudimentary standup, as there opponent is always concerned about the takedown. however a boxer needs excellent level wrestling as guys will likely always be attempting a takedown, also wrestling takes longer to learn and is inherently harder. (most ufc level fighters have wrestler for years, u wont be able to match them)
sak-fu - Matt Hughes' boxing really helped him in his last fight.
Versus a grappler who picked up boxing later on...So ?
BuddyRevell - You can teach a wrestler to be a great jiu jitsu guy, but you can't teach a jiu jitsu guy to be a great wrestler.
Don't tell GSP or Arona
Good read
SKARHEAD -GSP proves that a karate guy can be a great wrester. Arona's a good example though, haha.BuddyRevell - You can teach a wrestler to be a great jiu jitsu guy, but you can't teach a jiu jitsu guy to be a great wrestler.Don't tell GSP or Arona
Naughty Gorilla - I guess a few ufc HW's lately have been the exception, but wrestlers generally SUCK at striking..
on the other hand, seems like guys with a judo base more often than not become decent strikers (Gono, Sakurai, Akiyama, Misaki).
I always imagined it had something to do with the stance and the rotation used in judo
Traditional upright Japanese style judo comes from jujutsu context in which strikes and blade attacks were a consideration. Or so I've read.
My take on the OP idea
Grappling can be done pretty hard right away and as long as people are disciplined enough to tap and respect the tap most people don't get injured.
Striking has too high an attrition rate if you jump in the deep end right away. You have to start slower, and you have to restrain yourself even if the other guy is getting through at that slower speed. A lot of the time a grappler won't have that patience because he's used to being able to go to 11. Plus when people do get tagged they tend to try and be faster than the other guy, falling back on attributes rather than skills. So to my mind it's mostly mindset.
Who are these wrestlers with great wrestling that Aleks is talking of? Brock, Matt Hughes, Mark Coleman.
A 13 year old Mike Tyson, 6 months after being introduced to boxing had better boxing ability than Matt Hughes and Coleman after 10 years of boxing training
Chris Black -BUFFGEO - Ive done boxing for a looong time, I picked up wrestling easy
Of all the styles: BJJ, boxing/kickboxing/ wrestling... the striking arts are BY FAR the hardest for someone to do effectively IMO
anyone can learn to be effective wrestling/BJJ in no time
with boxing/kickboxing people can train for years and still suck bad.... its one of those things you either have it or you dont
Your last statement is spot on.
+1
Good striking is very technical, and very difficult, painful, and to a degree (fast strikes and slips, serious KO power, etc.), impossible to "learn".
This is coming from someone who has trained BJJ going on 9 years, and at times, 5x a week.
Once I was purple belt level, I was very confident that I could use my grappling in a fight. I remember thinking that, barring college wrestlers and genetic freaks, I could handle any untrained guy in that area.
So I decided to branch out my training.
I thought, "well fuck wrestling, I should just learn striking -- then I can KO the guy, and if he takes me down, even better".
I started training at a boxing gym.
A few months later I decided to shift my priorities to wrestling.
Still train striking off-and-on, but with a strong emphasis on defensive fighting. Whenever I watch Rodney King's stuff, I feel like he is catering to me.
ttt
bsrizpac -Yeah, submissions/bjj is easier to pick up than either wrestling or striking, imo.
Pajama nerds who think striking is easy should take note.
Mphelan -
Gono and Misaki have backgrounds in kickboxing.
I'm pretty sure Judo was their first art. I think actually Sambo for Gono.
SKARHEAD -sak-fu - Matt Hughes' boxing really helped him in his last fight.
Versus a grappler who picked up boxing later on...So ?
Wrong. BJ boxed as a youth before he started grappling.
some interesting ideas on this thread
Depends on the person. Everyone is always searching for magic formulas and theories. Good boxers can be good at MMA if they train in MMA and pay attention to it and vice versa. It isn't easy to be the top echelon in boxing or MMA and THAT is why you haven't seen it yet, the guys in both sports are very talented. I think everyone should just do the most with what they have and stop worrying about being too short/tall/lanky/strong/big/etc. Just train and get better and prove everyone wrong.
nonethletic grappling poseurs like to fantasize that whatever flailing around the are doing is soooo technical they have major mental blockages that dont allow them to understand how technical consistantly effective striking is.
bsrizpac - I always laugh at BJJ/Grappling guys who think striking is simple or easy. Step into a ring-try it. Get back to us.
Come on man. We all know that entering a BJJ competition, aka "fight" to some of these people, is just as rough as boxing lol.
Guys that are athletic quality boxers have had little motivation to learn wrestling. Now with MMA paying well things might change. We'll see as time goes on.
BuddyRevell -bsrizpac -Yeah, submissions/bjj is easier to pick up than either wrestling or striking, imo.
Pajama nerds who think striking is easy should take note.
I think in terms of wrestling;
Wrestling is VERY physical and very brutal, in fact HS wrestling was tough but when I trained with private instructors it was even tougher as they (other students) go out there to injure you. so you come home and EVERYthing is sore...refer to the "Why does everyone here hates CrossFit" in the S&C forum, sore, in pain, dead tired doesn't mean effective
there are some athletic wrestlers, but they are NOT the norm. there a lot more nonathletic people that call themselves wrestlers than there are in futbol, basketbal, and north american style football.